Leeds or elsewhere? Should DD go for Adjustment to study Economics

[PKPopsy]

My daughter applied to study Economics at Warwick and Leeds. Warwick rejected her and Leeds gave her an offer. She did the French bac and got her marks a couple of weeks ago and did really, really well - maths offer was 13 out of 20 and she got 18, overall average offer was 14 and she got 16.

My question is, should she go for adjustment in August? She loved Leeds when we visited, and I know it is very good for economics, but part of me thinks I am being naive and she should go for the best possible place for her future. She's a hard worker, but really wants to have a good time as well, and thinks Leeds will be good for both academics and fun.

Any people out there have some pearls of wisdom?

Manchester just isn’t up there with the best.

I think the figures for Manchester may include the BA econ graduates - a perfectly decent course but doesn’t require A level maths ( there is a bad course whic does). The top salaries seem to be related to the a level maths grade required for course admission.

Im not sure I understand Bubbles' analysis. I suspect there are too many variables to draw the conclusions she does from such high level stats.

However

1. I think there is some truth in PKPopsy's idea. City recruiters, who may not have studied in the UK themselves, may have a better knowledge of the Universities their children, or their children's friends are considering. (Exeter might be one example.)

1. I have no idea why Bubbles thinks girls dont study economics at the LSE. I dont know when she last visited the campus but it is nowhere near as male dominated as, say, Imperial. Even DS' mathematical economics cohort was around 50% female and from memory girls walked away with all the prizes.

1. Phphion says you would need at least 3As to get into Warwick. (OP - DS was rejected despite a 4A prediction, it is a tough course to get onto.) The correlation between salary in your mid 20s may simply be with the strength of A level grades achieved. It may also be with course/University but from the data Bubbles quotes, I am not sure that she can draw that conclusion.

1. There is some supply and demand going on. "Quants" can often demand higher starting salaries as there are quite a number of employers (banks, hedge funds, research bodies, specialist economic consultancies, public sector) wanting people who can crunch the numbers. And not that many economics graduates who both enjoy statistics and have the aptitude. The big 4 quantitative economics courses are Warwick, UCL, LSE and Cambridge so you would expect average new graduate salaries to be higher. (Which does not mean that other graduates wont catch up.) Bristol is also known to offer a number of econometrics options.

1. International students will skew the data. Only 25% of LSE UGs will be from the UK and it is reasonable to expect higher proportions of UK undergraduates in subjects like law, and perhaps sociology or geography. (Way back when I was an undergraduate I was the only Brit on my course so this is nothing new.) That makes the collection of meaningful and comparable statistics difficult. A third of DS' cohort specialising in mathematical economics were on Government scholarships from their home countries and expected to return. A big enough percentage to impact any data.

1. A good proportion of strong students will go onto further study. Less than 20% of DS' immediate peers got jobs in the UK immediately on graduation. The starting salaries they landed were impressive, but since at least 30% of the group, possibly more, have gone on to study for PhDs, average salaries five years after graduation are unlikely to be anything special.

In short I am not sure that a prospective student gains too much from analysing this data. Fit is all important. Why do you want to study economics? What do you enjoy? Where do you think you will be happy? If you dont enjoy maths, think carefully before committing to a very quantitative course, whatever the prestige or prospects.

Bubbles is it this IFS report that you are referring to? www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13036
LSE data for Economics is included for women for IPWRA scores so probably just an anomaly in what you saw for data given for mean earnings

Needmoresleep as you will see from the report the methodology applying IPWRA coefficients addresses the variables of background and previous attainment (and therefore PKPopsy’s post and your points 1 and 3.
As far as I can gather the data set for background variables is only from the UK and the findings simply apply to earnings taxed in the UK (shown in the summary for 5 years after graduation).

I guess we can trust the IFS to make sure that numbers were sufficient for their statistical modelling taking into consideration that some courses will have relatively fewer UK students.

PKPopsy strictly speaking your DD does not fit into this data set as she was educated outside the UK but I think the finding of the report with the inclusion of weighing for socioeconomic background factors and school grades are more useful and reliable than Needmoresleep comments imply.
Does n’t of course say how much the students enjoyed their university years and may be invalid in a few years depending what happens to UK HE and graduates.

Sorry PKPopsy left out that from the table Leeds is just below UCL for weighted scores for females and only slightly below Warwick for males. (Bristol is lower). So no reason from this not to take up the Leeds offer.

I know little about economics but do take into account the correlation in doing well academically with how happy you are generally. Leeds and Warwick are obviously very different ‘experiences’ as places and you’re doing exactly the right thing weighing up whether the ‘better on paper’ course at Warwick overrides the positive feeling she got from Leeds. Is she motivated by salary statistics? How many thousands of pounds extra (based on average data) in potential is Warwick worth? The differences in male and female salaries listed here is depressing. However practically is her future career everything or in 10 years will she want to be a SAHM so does that make the potential extra salary for a few years worth more or less? Its impossible isn’t it!? As a side point, Dd hated the (lack of) atmosphere at Warwick and loved Leeds. She realised she wanted to have the buzz of a city and the student union was great. My friend’s Ds liked the ‘calmness’ of Warwick.

Let her go to Leeds if she wants to! It's a decent uni and it's her decision.

That was the data, sendsummer. I did just look at salaries and I know there was lots of other info. However I do buy into the notion that students should be happy and success is personal in a way. It’s what the student wants to do, not what other students do or indeed decide not to do! Eg go to London. So choose what suits her best.

I loved Leeds, I just thought that she and I should probably inform ourselves a bit more than we had done initially and make sure she will be stretched intellectually. But then the French bac is very formulaic, so I suspect there will be plenty she has to unlearn in that sense moving to the UK system where more independent thinking is required.

@BubblesBuddy perhaps I'm being unfair to Bristol, Cambridge is most certainly the same although much much harder to get into obvs. As for being happy, I do want that for her, but university is expensive, and has to be more than just a jolly three year pub crawl (Do students still go to pubs? I don't think so). So the data is interesting in that it confirms what I suspected that Leeds is less well thought of by recruiters. Not that they know much, I talked to one last week at a party who assured me Birmingham wasn't Russell Group and Bath was.

@ZandathePanda yes indeed, happiness does make a huge difference and it is impossibly hard to be sure where they will be happiest. Especially as we visited Leeds on an open day and the atmosphere was amazing, and Warwick on a normal day in the holidays ie only language students and construction workers. Where did your DD end up?

@Needmoresleep 4 A* prediction and no offer! That makes me feel better, I was upset they rejected her.

@ZandathePanda THIS! Totally agree. As a professor I miss the days parents left their kids to make their own decisions based on what they want from a university experience. It's NOT all about future salary. In fact that's the last thing it should be about but every one wants an ROI these days.

More places may open up in 3 weeks if students with offers failed to get grades. Clearing is open now but it's worth sitting tight until results day

Not sure what the French bac grade is considered equivalent to, what is a top mark?

I think for some grads it is all about salary and they are fiercely ambitious. It takes all sorts! I would suggest few study Economics at a top university and expect not to pay their grad tax! If students study arts then there is a different mind set. I think salaries do tell you about what students aspire to on certain courses.

Medics earn most overall after 5 years but I bet there are few that would put that amount of effort in for £20k on graduation or less. There are expectations attached to some degrees whether professors like it or not. If you really want that high flying job, and have the qualifications, attributes and luck to get on the best courses, why wouldn’t you aspire to a great starting salary and high remuneration 5 years later? Not everyone can afford to ignore career and money because living costs are high and not all parents can subsidise their DC for 10 years when they earn next to nothing.

OP. Your DD could apply next year couldn’t she? Does she have to decide now? If she does think she could be at a better university could she weigh up whether it’s best to take Leeds, try again next year and, at the same time, decide what she would prefer as a career path? Also whether maths will influence which course she takes? However being happy is being sure you’ve made the right decision and isn’t just about taking what appears to be an easier course.

@stucknoue in the French bac the UCAS calculator gives me 168 points for my daughters 16/20 average, which is the equivalent of 2 A* and an A. However, if she was applying in France her choice of bac ES (the choice is either Science, Economie or Lettres) would be taken into account. Traditionally, the French consider that the cleverest students do bac Science, with the emphasis on chemistry, physics and bio, no matter what they do after. This is probably because many end up in 'prepa' which is 2 more years of school, to try and get into 'les grands écoles'. Not sure if UK universities look at it that way.

@BubblesBuddy very good idea, but my DD genuinely enjoys the structure of studying and a year off doesn't really interest her. She is eager to move on. Who knows how she would feel after a year.

@ZandathePanda and @whotheeff the happiness of my DD is indeed very important. But she is a natural student who worked her bottom off to do well, and her work paid off. I now want her to be in the best possible place intellectually as well as socially/geographically. Hence my question on where she will get the best teaching in a subject she enjoys.

PKPopsy just be careful if she is really keen on Leeds and ends up at another university that she doesn’t blame you if she’s happy. Being in the right frame of mind at the start is very important. The drop out stats at my Dds school for last year’s students weren’t good.

That should be ‘not happy’! The heat is getting to me! There were a lot of drop-outs in the first university year from the previous cohort at Dd’s school. I think some went on to do different courses but it’s an expensive and stressful situation if that happens.

where she will get the best teaching in a subject she enjoys
In most universities it is less about being taught and more about progressing through mainly independent study with access to a variable number of inspiring academics. Excellent preparation for initiative and independence in careers. Leeds is a good fit for her ES bac mark. A place at Warwick in one of their most competitive subjects would be a stretch for her.

168 UCAS points is 3A*, surely (3 x 56)?

2A*A would be 160 points.

DD applied to both Warwick and Leeds, as well as Birmingham, Exeter and UEA and got offers from all (for variations on 'IR and French', though, not Economics). Exeter and Warwick were the two that she decided definitely not to pursue. She - and we - loved Leeds (university and city), but she also loved Birmingham and in the end she decided on the certainty of their offer over the very specific requirement of Leeds. Her decisions and we respect them.

Marching, yes, but Warwick average entry score according to the CUG is higher than that. This is a highly competitive course that rejects a lot of qualified applicants.

FWIW strong maths skills are probably the decider for many as it is known as a fairly mathematical course. OP will know whether the Bac ES is more mathematical than the Bac Science. But if not, that might be part of the reason. Many applicants will be offering double maths.

Needmoresleep Bac S has a higher level of maths than ES.

PKPopsy, you mentioned you were overseas. Has your DD been given home status for her offer at Leeds? If not, I don’t know what their international fees are but I do know that Warwick international Student fees for Economics/Morse type courses starting 2019 are £24,540 y1, £25,770 y2 and £27,060 y3, so big jump from home fees of £9,250.
This may not be a factor in your decision but just making you aware.

@PennyForum She got home status, not initially but we appealed and got it. Still working on the student loan though. Leeds is a great place for students in a financial sense though, lots of public transport and cheap Ubers to get out and about.

Very good point on the Bac ES maths, I realised it wasn't the same level but hadn't really focused on it.

Thanks so much for all input on this thread, it has really helped me figure things out in my head and I'm grateful nobody has given me too hard a time for a being a self confessed neurotic mother. I feel an obligation to compensate for the lack of support from my DD's school. Long live Mumsnet!

OP dont worry. DS was at a very academic school and seemingly a strong applucant. 5 A levels plus the equivalent of an AS in an European language. 4 A* prediction including FM, and a huge interest in academic economics. Yet the advice he received was that though he should be aiming for a top course (Warwick, LSE, UCL and Cambridge) he should apply to all four, and be happy with whichever he got, and be ready to reapply if he did not get any.

In the event he got LSE on about the last day of March, but none of the others. He has gone on to a Masters, and now to a (generously) funded PhD at a top 10 US department.

I will admit to a slight touch of childishness about the fact that Warwick, UCL and Cambridge were not considered when he was applying for a Masters.

He will have been affected by the fact he came from what might be considered an 'educationally advantaged' school, but the competition is huge. Only a quarter of LSE students will be from the UK, and there will be plenty of super bright overseas applicants elsewhere.Warwick in particular is where strong applicants who narrowly miss Cambridge, but who dont want London, will go.

This is why I was asking about your DDs interests. DS loves the maths, but LSE has been a huge struggle for some of his friends who dont. Economis is a broad subject and lots of scope to specialise in areas that interest. Somewhere like Birmingham will keep doors open. If she finds herself coming top of her year group, she takes a Masters at somewhere like LSE. My one tip is to do as much maths as she feels comfortable with.

Dont worry about about salary stats. People who want to earn a lot probably will. DS is not bothered. He is a natural researcher. And we know someone on one of these top courses who became a Vicar.

In an interesting (to me) little postscript to this thread, I went online to Clearing to see what might be on offer clicking on the "Living in England" option. Absolutely nothing of interest to my DD, no courses at all at Leeds, a strange batch of courses at Warwick. Out of curiosity I changed my location to Overseas (non EU). Practically every single uni on offer to study Economics - Warwick, Bristol, Leeds etc etc.

So effectively they fill the places with the best students, then the rest of the places go to those with the deepest pockets. I feel a bit sad for UK kids who narrowly missed their offers who will have less choices available to them.

PKPopsy
Universities have had to become businesses and that will be even more the case after Brexit.