Leeds or elsewhere? Should DD go for Adjustment to study Economics

[PKPopsy]

My daughter applied to study Economics at Warwick and Leeds. Warwick rejected her and Leeds gave her an offer. She did the French bac and got her marks a couple of weeks ago and did really, really well - maths offer was 13 out of 20 and she got 18, overall average offer was 14 and she got 16.

My question is, should she go for adjustment in August? She loved Leeds when we visited, and I know it is very good for economics, but part of me thinks I am being naive and she should go for the best possible place for her future. She's a hard worker, but really wants to have a good time as well, and thinks Leeds will be good for both academics and fun.

Any people out there have some pearls of wisdom?

[sendsummer]

Hugo almost as many applied without FM A level or AS level as applicants with FM A levels. However only 5% of the former group got offers. LSE should be a bit more open about their requirements.

[sendsummer]

Needmoresleep, not so sure whether it is as clear cut as that. As you say LSE won't want to discourage gifted applicants from schools which do not offer FM so have maintained the official line that FM is not required.
However a search for this question surprisingly brings up as a first hit a FOI request rather than the LSE website. The data from that shows that only 5% applicants with neither FM AS level nor A level have had offers in recent years.

[Needmoresleep]

Bubbles, my DS went to LSE to study economics five years ago. FM A level definitely NOT required. Even then quite a number of schools did not offer it.

I suggest the DC of the very good friend has got confused or failed to read the LSE website correctly. I think it is important to remember the last thing any University wants to do it rule out gifted state school applicants.

Sad for your friends DC. The LSE economics course is very good.

[BubblesBuddy]

It did require FM a few years ago. DC of a very good friend didn’t have it so we double checked the requirement. It said FM. However that’s now not the case as I clearly stated. I recognise some schools don’t offer it but DCs did and he didn’t take it. Hence there was a problem.

Yes, I’m wondering what OPs DC decided.

[GrouchoMrx]

My point was more that a young person from a slightly less advantageous background in the UK, who wasn't necessarily top of their class but is still a great student with lots of potential, is going to lose out when all the extra spots are taken by overseas student

But potential UK students are not losing out. Fees paid by international students are a substantial source of funding for these universities.

If international students were not there to provide this funding, these universities and courses would struggle to maintain the quality of their courses and research and retain their rankings. These universities would quickly slide down the scales and would eventually end up making unconditional offers to all UK students who apply. There are already plenty of universities in the UK who fulfil this role.

[Needmoresleep]

Bubbles...I am not sure where you get your information from. LSE Economics has NEVER requured FM at A level. Lots of schools dont offer it. I think it is important that on this board are as careful as possible to get their facts right.

As for students who don't like mixing with overseas students, I don't know but it sounds a tad racist to me. Brittons come in all shapes and sizes, as do International students. To be honest any student aiming for a top ranked course should be able to embrace sharing a lecture hall with bright students from across the world. And expect a good proportion of their lecturers to be similarly international.

[BubblesBuddy]

I think some DC don’t find mixing with overseas students easy and it does have something to do with what they want from their university experience and their upbringing. Some DC really do not mix easily. Others do and thrive on it. However, universities in London that are world renown will have more overseas students. Most applicants know LSE and Imperial, in particular, are like this and embrace it, for example. It is one reason they are academically first class. I don’t think they should necessarily change and the entry qualifications are the same for all.

LSE has also reduced its entry requirement for Economics in that they used to require FM A level a few years ago and now they don’t. This recognises that some DC do not get the chance of this subject.

I think the vast majority of DC who are appropriately qualified do get the courses they want, overseas students or not. Clearing suggests many courses are available so it’s not as if good options are not available. The best courses have never been available to those who are not the best and certainly are never in clearing.

[PKPopsy]

@Indicative the rules for home/overseas fees are decisions made by the individual universities, not a national organisation. We were initially classified as overseas by the unis, but on appeal and submitting more details on my DD's connections to the UK they awarded us home status. We got advice for this from the UK Council for International Student Affairs UKCISA who were great.

[Indicative]

i am intrigued as to how if you are non EU your DD has managed to get home status and therefore access to hone fees/loans especially as you state you wanted your children to learn more about the British and Britain.

[CraftyGin]

My DD is doing Economics at Edinburgh and it is fab.

[PKPopsy]

I have alot of experience in international environments as we chose international schools for my DDs, I think they gained an enormous amount from making friends with people from all over. But we wanted our children to learn more about Britain and the British so we chose accordingly. Not the situation for most people here I expect.

My point was more that a young person from a slightly less advantageous background in the UK, who wasn't necessarily top of their class but is still a great student with lots of potential, is going to lose out when all the extra spots are taken by overseas students. They will be forced to borrow the same amount, for a less good course, at a less good university.

[Needmoresleep]

I did not say that.

OP seems to object to international students. Im saying that in DCs experience they add to campus life. In part because DC were not seeking the a sort of stereotypical (though possibly inaccurate) student life which revolves round drinks, drugs and parties. As she suggests international students are often more sober and focused. Some students, including possibly OPs DD will think this is a bad thing. Luckily in the UK higher educational system there is lots of choice.

[howwudufeel]

That’s unfair needsmoresleep. Not all ‘provincial’ students are like that.

[Needmoresleep]

Weirdly my information about the cliquishness of the French came from a discussion amongst a mixed group of DS friends (UK, Chinese and other) at our house. With the Chinese claiming most that French students never bothered to speak to them, even when it would have been polite to do so. The French obviously tended to be quite an affluent group so perhaps it was slightly a class thing.

[Needmoresleep]

I agree nobodies business. However the financial choice for the government is whether to make up financial shortfalls via revenues (profitable research, overseas students) or via tax payer subsidy. My guess is that UK taxpayers may want to prioritise other things including social care, money for secondary education and so on.

May I suggest that your administrator friend has a biased sample in that she may simply be hearing from those students who are unhappy. DS really benefited from being in an international cohort. He loves his subject and tends not to enjoy drinking or partying. (Though was active in a number of societies and was part of a 7 a side league.) He had a good mixed group of friends, including Chinese, east Europeans etc. And oddly the Feench (who often acted as if they were still living in the same expensive French banlieu) were considered the most cliquey. DS knew Germans Austrians, Italians, Scandinavians but the French kept very much to themselves, only spoke French socially, and tended to be very focused on landing yheir prestigious banking job. At the end of the day I am certain that DS was happier in a very international cohort, where the focus was on their common interest in their course, than in a party flat at a provincial university where the common interest was ketamine. (DD went through the latter. Not easy.) I think whether international students are seen as an advantage will depend on what your DD want to get out of University.

[PKPopsy]

My friend works as an administrator in a top RG university. She says every time they go over 30% Chinese students on certain very popular courses she has an endless stream of UK born students coming in to complain that they are lost and haven't made friends because a large minority of the students speak another (different) language and socialise together. They try and keep a balance so one nationality does not go over about a third of the cohort. It is disingenuous to say that the number of international students doesn't affect the learning experience of all, UK and non-UK. A difficult balance needs to be struck, that's all.

Agree with @PotolBabu on putting pressure on govt. However, if universities are now businesses, then they have to make the decision all businesses face which is how to keep afloat. Many businesses choose to stay small and profitable, rather than chase endless growth. Uni of Bham is building a campus in Dubai and under massive construction, I simply don't accept that these things are of benefit to the average student in comparison to hiring decent professors, and keeping the cohort small and manageable.

@needmoresleep I'm not EU, and whether I pay UK taxes is nobody's business.

[Needmoresleep]

Curiously both DC on competitive courses (Economics and medicine) have found that the vast majority of the UK friends have been state educated. Universities make every effort to rebalance the piste. (I am not sure though that this would have been the case had either gone to Oxbridge.)

A different issue, is that UK (and Irish) Universities are very popular within the EU. People like OP's DD. Over 50% of the home students on DS' course were non UK. My best guess is that there is an awareness that Higher Education funding needs to change, but that people are waiting to see what happens with Brexit.

DD considered applying to Ireland for medicine. EU students are home students so need to be considered equally, but Ireland also need to educate doctors who will practice in Ireland. We worked out the UK equivalent of the qualifications required (Ireland uses a points system) and it would have been roughly 3A*s and an A at A level, a language at GCSE and a reasonable score in their aptitude test.

LSE has introduced new courses over the last few years to help ensure they are more accessible to state pupils, without lowering the academic demands of courses (their new PPE degree is four years which gives a bit more space) and does local outreach. However legally they need to treat all EU applicants equally, plus there is only so much they can do. The worst outcome for anyone, is for students on contextual offers to struggle with their course. A problem with low quality teaching will mainly need to be solved at a school level not at a University level.

[howwudufeel]

Needmoresleep they often aren’t in a position to apply because they have been let down and neglected during their secondary education. They can’t compete against pupils who have been educated privately either here or abroad. People really do need to grasp this.

[Needmoresleep]

Eh?

The main reason UK kids miss out on the excellent economics courses at places like LSE and UCL is that they don't apply.

LSE, Imperial and almost certainly UCL all offer great bursaries for lower income UK students. They WANT them to apply. Plus I think there are swings and roundabouts. For example DC's observation was that it was easier to get into Imperial as a UK student rather than as an overseas student.

And though some of the second tier courses OP mentions may still be accepting overseas students for clearing/adjustment this might simply reflect a different pattern of application. It may well be that a number of O/seas students will apply late, either when they have their results, or perhaps when they know how their applications to the US or elsewhere have gone.

To be honest, OP is almost certainly not a UK taxpayer. At £9000 her DDs fees will almost certainly not cover the costs of running her course. Her DD will need to be subsidised by someone. She may prefer that the UK taxpayer does this. I, as a UK taxpayer, would prefer if the subsidy came from the fees paid by good, hard working and able overseas students. Similarly my DC were more than happy to see good diversity amongst their student peers, which interaila will help with the international recognition of their course, and with their future professional networks. In fact DS who is now studying in the US, this is already the case. There are plenty of former LSE students at his University, including in his department, and he probably knows people in every major economics faculty in the US.

Interestingly Universities in Scotland, which does not charge Scottish or European students, but which does charge English ones, often require lower grades for English students. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

[PotolBabu]

Well, as an academic, then put pressure on the govt for more funding for Universities OR be prepared to pay for more? It’s not enough to say ‘but why are we missing out?’ You are missing out because our funding system changed and we depend on student fees and our home numbers are capped and our international numbers aren’t. If people keep voting for govts that treat universities (and the NHS) as businesses then they can’t complain when their children fall foul of this. (I am not saying each individual poster voted for this but I find there is a lot of cognitive dissonance between political choices and the impact on people’s lives).

[howwudufeel]

It’s so unfair that UK kids are missing out on the opportunity of these excellent courses.

[Needmoresleep]

OP, I think you are being unfair. Universities need to be funded, and top Universities, who are competing in an international market place, both for staff and research, need good funding.

(Certainly in economics, DS suggests that the gap in academic pay between top and second tier Universities in the UK for economists is significant. Top Universities compete, to some extent if you factor in a desire to stay within a European University setup, with US Universities and UK research institutions including banks. Second tier Universities don't.)

Who should fund:

1. the UK taxpayer
2. increased fees for home students
3. commercial type activities including paid research for Government and others
4. international students who pay fees at a higher rate.

The first two options are politically unpopular. Though MN, and presumably your DD, may see students from outside the UK, amnd from different educational backgrounds as a bad thing, others will see it as a positive. For example some of the leading world university ranking tables factor in both research quality and internationalism (and why places like the National University of Singapore are busy offering scholarships for good UK students.) DC have enjoyed studying with international students, partly because they grew up in a pretty multicultural part of London, and partly because international students often work harder and party less than UK students, which suits them.
.

[BubblesBuddy]

Yes. Lots of universities do that. They essentially have quotas. Home students and overseas. Home fills up but overseas for non Oxbridge or UCL or LSE is a matter of getting in the overseas fees. The course my DD2 did had even more overseas than they said they would. Also around 70%. Again the university in London had the biggest name for that type of course so they just recruited extra paying students!