So Johnson has 30 days to come up with an alternative to the backstop......

[Bearbehind]

This will be interesting to watch!

Honouring majority vote is democracy even if the result of the vote was a surprise.

The voters were mislead, misinformed and blatantly lied to. Is there any room for honesty in your democracy @MysteryTripAgain? Or is that just another casualty, along with our democratic institutions?

@Dione

People can change their mind in the next general election if they wish and vote for the pro leave or pro remain parties as they choose.

Article 49 enables members to rejoin.

as you can get the government formed by a party that did not receive the majority vote

UK system define majority as winning 326 seats or more. If there are more than two parties then there is always the possibility of no party getting more than 50% of the vote, but wins in seats. My earlier suggestion was to have a second round of voting with only the two parties that came first and second in the first round. Then one party is certain to get a majority.

And let's not hear about the Brexit Party only being formed for a few weeks. The Brexit Party under Nigel Farage is UKIP rebranded.

If Nigel Farage decides to clear off to the US it will probably go the way of UKIP - constant changes of leader and in fighting.

An application to rejoin will probably be heavily on the cards, particularly in the event of No Deal.

Bye bye sterling.👋

And bye bye veto.

@MysteryTripAgain - If there are more than two parties then there is always the possibility of no party getting more than 50% of the vote

Majority does not have to be more than 50% when there are more than 2 parties.

My question is very straightforward: do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

My second question is also very straightforward: Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

An application to rejoin will probably be heavily on the cards, particularly in the event of No Deal

No certainty that EU would accept the application.

And bye bye veto.sad

What’s that about?

I would 100% prefer the UK to stay in the EU but if they leave and the apply to rejoin at a future date, you can bet it won’t be with the privileges they enjoy now with rebates and sterling.

Majority does not have to be more than 50% when there are more than 2 parties

Hence the suggestion to have a second round of voting for two parties who got the most votes in the first round of voting.

My question is very straightforward: do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic

Situation in UK seems to be that system is democratic when the result suits and undemocratic when it does not. Smaller parties such as Green and LibDems have been squealing for decades to have a proportional representation system.

Even when it is a two horse race, like the 2016 referendum, those in the losing side always think of a reason to say it was not fair. Regular remain supporters still say;

The leavers were lied to

50 Million people did not vote for leave

The leave campaign was illegal

And so on.

All the methods to leave without affecting the GFA you have listed have been rejected. So why keep on listing them?

@MysteryTripAgain

Situation in UK seems to be that system is democratic when the result suits and undemocratic when it does not.

Nope. It's either democratic or it isn't . Disagreeing with a result doesn't make a democratic system undemocratic and vice-versa.

All the methods to leave without affecting the GFA you have listed have been rejected. So why keep on listing them?

No, they haven't. Norway plus was never put to parliament. NI as a special economic zone was never put to parliament. A NI only backstop was never put to parliament, although the DUP did say they would vote against it if it was. A UK wide backstop was put to parliament and was rejected. It is the only one of the 4 to be rejected.

So again:

1). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

2). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

Norway plus would be rejected for same reason as UK wide backstop was rejected as it involves being in a customs union and a single market. Making NI a special case would be rejected by DUP and ERG.

So if all suggestions are rejected then no deal looks to be a forced outcome as delivers the leave result.

If people change their minds and vote for pro remain parties in a future general election the UK can apply to rejoin the EU under article 49.

Is the current system of voting in the UK perfect? No it is not as there is no such thing as a perfect system. Each will have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Current system will not be changing soon as it favours the two larger parties.

What is your suggestion for a better system?

@MysteryTripAgain - Norway plus would be rejected for same reason as UK wide backstop was rejected as it involves being in a customs union and a single market. Making NI a special case would be rejected by DUP and ERG.

You don't know that they would be rejected until they are put to parliament. Besides which, that is irrelevant to my question.

The behaviour and actions of your government has led to the current impasse. The sensible thing to do at the beginning would have been a cross-party grouping set up to determine the best way to brexit whilst still complying with other obligations such as the GFA. The belligerent and intransigent approach taken was never going to end well.

Joining under A49 will result in loss of the special privileges the UK currently has. Why not do it properly now?

What is your suggestion for a better system?

The electoral system in the UK is none of my business. However, I do think the STV PR system works well.

Anyway, you still haven't answered my questions:

1). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

2). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

You don't know that they would be rejected until they are put to parliament

Was the NI only backstop not initially considered, but shelved by DUP as they did not want NI to have different status to rest of UK?

way to brexit whilst still complying with other obligations such as the GFA

BIC (British Irish Council) could have started that discussion in 2009 when Article 50 was passed, bit did not. Even when Cameron announced in January 2013 there would be a referendum if he was elected did not wake up the BIC. Cameron was elected two years later and the BIC still did not wake up.

Involving all UK member states, England, NI, Scotland and Wales from the beginning would have been more tactful. Guess it comes down the "people in London know best". Population of London alone is almost the same as that of NI, Scotland and Wales combined.

Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

I would be prepared to try another method. Some might say that Brexit has brought attention to fact that conservative and labour domination is over time not working.

particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc

Same answer as before. WA rejected due to CU and SM requirements. Special treatment of NI would be opposed by DUP. Scotland may also object. Non EU Countries on the Eastern European borders may object too.

@MysteryTripAgain - Was the NI only backstop not initially considered, but shelved by DUP as they did not want NI to have different status to rest of UK?

Yes. And I stated that. However, it was not put to parliament. Neither were special economic zone to cover NI nor Norway plus.

I would be prepared to try another method.

That still doesn't answer my question: Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

Same answer as before

That does not answer my question. You are focusing on the examples of compliant leaves I gave, rather than the actual question: Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA.

Shelved by the DUP doesn't mean put before Parliament. It just means she didn't have the bottle to tell them to fuck off.
Just as Johnson is trying to narrow Parliamentary options for Anti No Dealers, he's doing the same for DUP/ERG.
DUP are a bunch of twats who will be dropped like a stone.

Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA

If UK Government can't get the T May WA through parliament and EU won't go along with Johnson's request to remover the backstop completely, what is left other than leaving without a deal? Never ending extensions?

@MysteryTripAgain - If UK Government can't get the T May WA through parliament and EU won't go along with Johnson's request to remover the backstop completely, what is left other than leaving without a deal? Never ending extensions?

There are also the options of revision of UK red lines, NI as a special economic zone and NI only backstop. However, that has nothing to do with the question I am asking you. Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA?

And while we are at it: Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

I have to admire your persistence, clarity and politeness whyamidoingthis

I no longer bother to read Mystery's posts (or just skim over them just to check that he or she still fundamentally doesn't understand the situation) and just wait for your excellent take-downs . He or she is very good at ignoring the questions, corrections or points that don't fit with his or her narrative (like the fact that Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU - and proud of the fact ) - but you don't let him or her get away with it.

Thank you @prettybird. I do think it's important that incorrect information is called out (e.g. the stuff about how it is undemocratic to allow the GFA impact on brexit as more people voted for brexit than the GFA) or that the UK government has no choice but to no deal and that they are the victims in this narrative, being bullied by the big, bad EU.

The only reason the UK is currently in this mess is arrogance and intransigence, coupled with leaders who put party before country.

like the fact that Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU wink - and proud of the fact grin

ROI joined EU in 1973. It was not until 2014 they became a net contributor to the EU. In 2017 ROI contributed Euro 200 Million to EU. About 11 cents per person per day.

Since 1973 UK has given over half a Trillion GBP to the EU. In 2018 alone UK net contribution was GBP 13.2 Billion, Euro 14.5 Billion at today's exchange rate. About 60 cents per person per day.

There are also the options of revision of UK red lines

Maybe Johnson could drop the FOM so that persons could traverse the border without hindrance? Brexit was supposed to be about changes to trade as opposed to changes to people's rights.

NI as a special economic zone and NI only backstop

Either of those are fine by me. However, they will most likely be DUPed and ERGerd off the table.

particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA?

Gina Miller's case which resulted in the Supreme Court ruling that leaving the EU had to pass through parliament has contributed to the current situation. Had she not made that case T May and her cabinet could have got the WA through without presenting it to MPs.

So there is an argument that Gina Miller, although is pro remain, has actually put no deal into the frame is there not? Could DUP and ERG have cancelled the WA had it not been for the Gina Miller case?

Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic

2016 referendum was not an election. It was two horse contest and based on % only. Overall result was 52% to leave, but in terms of constituencies it was 63% to leave.

Current system is easy to follow, but has the quirk of seats won can exceed the % of vote.

The IRV system was suggested for UK in 2011, but those who expressed an opinion was less that 42%. However, of those that did give a view the no to IRV was much higher than those who supported such a system.

The STV system would require larger constituencies. Considering the huge difference in population density across the UK that is not going to work in sparse areas such as Scotland. Remember London has same total population as NI, Scotland and Wales combined. So the total constituencies in NI, Scotland and Wales would be the same as London!

UK is traditionally a conservative thinker as demonstrated that since WWII the Conservative party has been in power for twice as many years than labour.

@MysteryTripAgain - Could DUP and ERG have cancelled the WA had it not been for the Gina Miller case?

Again, that does not answer the question: Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA?

2016 referendum was not an election.

I'm not asking you about the referendum. I'm asking you about the UK electoral system. Just to clarify - I am not asking you what you think is the best electoral system or what you think could be changed to improve it. The question I am asking (repeatedly) is: Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

Both questions require a simple yes/no answer. I really don't understand why you keep pretending you are addressing the questions and then posting a load of irrelevancies.

"NI as a special economic zone and NI only backstop

'Either of those are fine by me. However, they will most likely be DUPed and ERGerd off the table.'"

On what table? If you mean Parliament, Johnson is about to lose his government 's majority.

MysteryTripAgain

Perhaps Ireland would be contributing 60c a day too if it wasn't a former colony.

@Apileofballyhoo