So Johnson has 30 days to come up with an alternative to the backstop......

[Bearbehind]

This will be interesting to watch!

Brexit was supposed to be about changes to trade as opposed to changes to people's rights.

Really? My understanding is that brexit was about brexit and that everyone who voted has a different interpretation of what that means. Hence the current mess.

On what table? If you mean Parliament, Johnson is about to lose his government 's majority

Making a Brexit party and Conservative party coalition the most likely consequence.

Perhaps Ireland would be contributing 60c a day too if it wasn't a former colony

Ireland ceased to be a UK Colony long before European Union was formed.

Your reply makes no logical sense MysteryTrip. Do you think the effects of colonialism wear off in a few decades? I'm sorry for your lack of education in that case. Here's the definition for you in case you can't use Google.

noun
noun: colonialism
the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically.

Highlight is my own.

www.lexico.com/en/definition/colonialism

I do think it's important that incorrect information is called out (e.g. the stuff about how it is undemocratic to allow the GFA impact on brexit as more people voted for brexit than the GFA)

Lets tackle this on the basis of Law;

Article 50 states:

Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements

Good Friday Agreement is not part of UK's Constitution. This was established in the Miller case whereby the supreme court ruled that UK does not need to obtain approval from Northern Island to leave the EU. This makes sense based on fact that; England, Scotland and Wales were not party to any referendums or votes for the Good Friday Agreement.

Article 50 also states:

The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period

This recognizes that if agreement cannot be made then the member that has chosen to leave the EU does so without a deal. This makes sense too as the member who wants to leave could be trapped in the EU forever otherwise.

Briefing notes from the European Parliament February 2016 read:

Substantive conditions for a withdrawal

Relevant international law provisions cannot be applied in parallel to Article 50 TEU. Rather, the procedure and consequences of a withdrawal from the EU are now governed by EU law and no recourse to international law is possible

This recognizes that EU law is not the law of the World. Rightly so as EU is 28 Countries out of a total of 195 in the World.

Also recognizes that when all 28 members passed Article 50 in 2009 that they had performed their own due diligence and researched how Article 50 could affect them as individuals in relation to any arrangements they have with non EU Countries or any agreements made prior to 2009 when Article 50 was passed.

Procedure

Ratification by Member States

Unlike the accession of new Member States to the EU, the withdrawal of a Member State does not require ratification by the remaining Member States – Article 50(1) TEU mentions (in a declaratory way) only the decision of the withdrawing state, in accordance with its constitutional requirements

This recognizes that all EU members are free to leave the EU without the consent of other members.

The role of the Court of Justice

Again unlike accession treaties, the withdrawal agreement is not primary EU law, since it is concluded between the EU and the withdrawing state and not between the latter and the rest of the Member States

This recognizes that if a member chooses to leave the EU then it deals with those that head the EU as opposed to individual members. Essentially the European Council which is made up of the Prime Ministers of each of the EU members.

Summary

Based on the provisions of Article 50 the Good Friday Agreement has no influence whatsoever whether or not either Ireland or the UK can choose to leave the EU.

The Good Friday Agreement, while given the status of an international treaty in 1998, was not incorporated into EU Law when Article 50 was passed in 2009 by the European Council in 2009. At that time UK Prime Minister was Tony Blair and Ireland Taoiseach was Brian Cowen.

EU law in not international law. This is recognized by the European Parliament in that disputes over Article 50 can only be dealt with by the Court of Justice (ECJ) and no referral can be made to international law.

Next point;

or that the UK government has no choice but to no deal and that they are the victims in this narrative, being bullied by the big, bad EU

Lets tackle the legal position:

Article 50 permits a member to leave the EU without a deal.

Negotiations on the Withdrawal Agreement take place in accordance with Article 218(3). This Article describes the procedure for negotiations, but nothing else.

The negotiating parties are free to agree whatever deal they wish. If agreement is not made then the member that applied to leave the EU does so without a deal and all laws and treaties lapse between the EU and the member who has left.

Certainly nothing in Article 218 that states the negotiators appointed by the European Council must only offer terms that take into account any agreements made between member states for their own purposes prior to Article 50 being passed.

So while a mutual deal can be made between EU and UK that takes into account the Good Friday Agreement there is nothing in law that states such a deal is obligatory.

@MysteryTripAgain - So while a mutual deal can be made between EU and UK that takes into account the Good Friday Agreement there is nothing in law that states such a deal is obligatory.

Again, integrity should be more important than the letter of the law. All your cut and pasting is doing is looking for excuses to justify the unjustifiable and trying to place the blame on anyone other than the individuals culpable for the current mess.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions:

1). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

2). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

Oh, and nothing in your post addresses the point I made about democracy that you are claiming to be addressing.

Again, integrity should be more important than the letter of the law

Suggest you never pursue a career in the legal profession. Arguments are presented on facts and how the law applies to the evidence. Assumptions and sympathy seeking by claimants qnever enters the equation and certainly is not taken into account when rulings are made.

@MysteryTripAgain - Suggest you never pursue a career in the legal profession

I'm perfectly capable of analysing logically based on facts. However, but every situation should be dealt with in that way. Looking for a loophole might be legal but it's often a dickish move and results in poor relations amongst parties to the agreement.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions:

1). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

2). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA?

However, but every situation should be dealt with in that way should read:

However, not every situation should be dealt with in that way.

I am not in favour of a no deal departure. Who knows a general election may not be far away. Maybe the anti no deal MPs can pull something out of the 🎩.

@MysteryTripAgain - Assumptions and sympathy seeking by claimants qnever enters the equation and certainly is not taken into account when rulings are made.

Oh, and this is offensive if you are referring to the current brexit situation. Ireland is simply insisting the UK complies with their obligations under the GFA. There is certainly no attempt at garnering sympathy.

Looks like there will be enough votes for a private members bill tomorrow to reject a no deal on 31 October.

Ireland is simply insisting the UK complies with their obligations under the GFA. There is certainly no attempt at garnering sympathy

ROI and NI entitled to take that view as they have experienced the troubles first hand. My annoyance comes from the remain supporters on the UK mainland who know little about the history of what lead to the GFA, but are happy to quote it when saying brexit should be canceled. Then day after come out with the: Englishman, Scotsman and Irishman jokes.....

Might be different on the island of Ireland, but in UK mainland GFA was hardly heard of during the referendum campaign and after the result. Came to prominence when the word backstop appeared toward end of 2018.

@MysteryTripAgain - My annoyance comes from the remain supporters on the UK mainland who know little about the history of what lead to the GFA, but are happy to quote it when saying brexit should be canceled.

That's a bit rich, given you have repeatedly demonstrated ignorance of NI, Ireland and the implementation and implications of the GFA. Simply reading the GFA does not confer an understanding of the implications and implementation of it.

I am a leave with a deal supporter as opposed to pure remain. Hence I would go for either NI only backstop or NI special economic zone to get around the CU and SM issues.

Such arrangement would benefit NI which is part of UK and so UK benefits too. At same time UK can expand more into non eu countries which are producing a trade surplus compared to the trade deficit with EU that has been growing since 1999.

Old enough to remember the trouble in the 70s. Uncle, who was soldier at the time in NI, still walks badly today due to attacks.

By no means an expert on NI history, but know more than some of the many two faced remain supporters who use GFA to say brexit should be canceled even though some of them don't know the date it was made. Worst example is those who do not know that GFA and Belfast agreement are the same!

@MysterTripAgain - By no means an expert on NI history, but know more than some of the many two faced remain supporters who use GFA to say brexit should be canceled even though some of them don't know the date it was made. Worst example is those who do not know that GFA and Belfast agreement are the same!

To be honest, that makes you sound very petulant and petty. Perhaps they were unaware of the implications but now they are, they want to ensure the UK lives up to their obligations.

I can also think of much worse that not knowing the GFA and Belfast agreement are the same. The GFA is always used in Ireland whereas the Belfast agreement seems to be the preferred term Britain. I'm not sure about NI but I expect it depends on your background, a bit like Derry/Londonderry.

I think your attempts to justify breaking the GFA by looking for legal loopholes is much worse than not knowing there are two names for the same agreement.

I think your attempts to justify breaking the GFA by looking for legal loopholes

No such thing a loopholes. Laws are what they are.

GFA has fallen through cracks not spotted by the BIC (British Irish Council) when Article 50 was passed in 2009. That means the only way out is to make some movements elsewhere. The NI only backstop/special economic area works for me.

As the regular poster Bellini has pointed out the border can't be kept open in the event of a no deal regardless of what both sides have said. Frictionless border checks are not possible for food products and live animals which represents a significant amount of crossings over the invisible border every day.

@MysteryTripAgain - No such thing a loopholes.

Definition: A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a system, such as a law or security, which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the purpose, implied or explicitly stated, of the system.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions:

1). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

2). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA?

Its not solely about the law. Thats an operating mechanism. What exactly do you propose, tear up GFA, send in armies and launch the breakup of the UK??

A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a system

That only applies to a single contract or one set of laws as opposed to different contracts and different laws that are not connected.

Ambiguities in UK law are dealt with under the Contra Proferentum principle. This is essentially that the interpretation that least favours the person who drafted the contract or law prevails as they should not profit from their poor draft.

Article 50 and GFA are not connected. So the Contra Proferentum can't be applied. Hence a fudge or compromise has to be sought or mutually agreed between the parties that are looking at different documents that relate to the same physical reality.

Border on the island of Ireland is such an example.

GFA says, by implication, there shall be no border between ROI and NI

EU Law states clearly that borders must exist between EU and Non EU Countries.

A no deal makes NI part of a Non EU Country. Hence ROI has to install a border in accordance with EU laws or gamble on losing some of it entitlements as n EU member if it gives favour to the GFA.

Difficulty of that is it places pressure on EU as a whole to follow. As per WTO rules of the most favoured nation any relaxation granted for the border between ROI and NI would have to be replicated on the Eastern European borders.

@MysteryTripAgain - Perhaps reread the definition I provided. I was not giving a legal definition of loophole. It refers to an ambiguity in a system. A system can consist of multiple, interconnected elements. While GFA and brexit are not connected by law, they are connected by circumstances.

Again, it all boils down to integrity. Do you want to uphold your word as a country or simply break your word once it becomes inconvenient?

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions:

1). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

2). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA?

While GFA and brexit are not connected by law

Correct.

they are connected by circumstances

Which were not spotted by the British Irish Council in accordance with their duties detailed in the GFA.

Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic

It has is pros and cons like all other possible methods. Until another system is voted through everyone will have to stick with it. The seat system has suited my circumstances twice.

Being able to contact a local MP was a big help when I applied for Son's passport. Clowns in passport office were convinced that as son was not born in the UK he was not entitled to a UK passport.

Likewise immigration department shelved stepdaughters passport application as they assumed she was UK citizen as her parents were both UK passport holder. Too lazy to realize that wife had become UK citizen via marriage to a UK citizen.

as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA

The ways UK can leave the EU without impact on GFA have not yet all been placed on the table. The WA was rejected mostly by DUP and ERG. I guess an NI only backstop or NI special economic zone will also be rejected by DUP. ERG seem to prefer no deal.

Remember that all deals proposed must go through parliament as a result of the Gina Miller case. WA might have got through had it not been for that case?

@MysteryTripAgain - Which were not spotted by the British Irish Council in accordance with their duties detailed in the GFA.

You are again trying to deflect blame. There was an erroneous assumption on the part of the Irish that the UK would act with integrity and not brexit in a way that threatened the GFA. The potential impact on the border was certainly discussed by the Irish and some British in advance of the referendum. Once it became apparent the UK was not acting with integrity, the topic was centre stage for the BIC.

You have not answered my questions, so I'm not sure why you have quoted them. I'm sure you realise that what you have written is completely irrelevant to my questions.

1). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

2). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA?

You are again trying to deflect blame

You are using the word blame. I use the word error. Blame or error does not change how EU and UK arrived at the current day.

The potential impact on the border was certainly discussed by the Irish and some British in advance of the referendum

When? Where? What was the outcome of the discussions?

Once it became apparent the UK was not acting with integrity, the topic was centre stage for the BIC

When? Where? What was the outcome of the discussions? I can't find anything on the BIC website that would support that statement.

Remember that Article 50 was developed over a period of years from 2002 to 2009. Where are the records that BIC reviewed the potential impacts on the GFA that Article 50 may have? Where are the records?

Did BIC alert Cameron to the potential impacts that Article 50 may have on GFA when he announced in January 2013 he would call a referendum if re-elected in 2015? Where are the records?

Did BIC alert Cameron to the potential impacts that Article 50 may have on GFA when he was re-elected in 2015? Where are the records?

Did BIC alert T May to the potential impacts that Article 50 may have on GFA before she triggered Article 50? Where are the records?

The briefing notes prepared by the European Parliament in February 2016 are in the link:

www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

Page 3 of 8 states that informal discussions can take place before the member issues formal notice of withdrawal, but this did not happen.

This question was asked by Fiona Bruce on the 4 April 2019 episode of BBC Question Time and whether or not EU were at fault for demanding that UK invokes Article 50 before discussions took place.

The Irish MEP, Meiread McGuinness, replied saying that would have gone against the rules. However, that is not consistent with the European Parliament briefing notes in the link above.

1). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic

Democratic when your vote is on the winning side and undemocratic when on the losing side.

as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA

If those multiple ways are put on the table an accepted by MPs then they will go through. If not accepted by MPs then either UK leaves EU without a deal or another extension is agreed.

Even Government is divided as evidenced by recent vote over the entire brexit process