So Johnson has 30 days to come up with an alternative to the backstop......

[Bearbehind]

This will be interesting to watch!

@MysteryTripAgain - oh, and you still haven't answered my question as to whether you think the UK electoral system is democratic.

are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act

Duty of governments is to preserve democracy by honouring majority vote.

A situation that has only come about due to the lack of integrity displayed by the UK wrt their obligations under the GFA

Existence of GFA does not override EU law for border control between EU and non EU countries which were established long before GFA was passed in 1998. Had there not been a GFA the ROI would still have to install a border between ROI and NI if UK left the EU.

Nobody wants to see anybody to be harmed due to Brexit, but if DUP and ERG block the NI only backstop/special economic zone then no deal is forced.

Can’t see how telling 17.4 Million people they can’t have what they voted for because it might annoy some minority terrorists in NI.

Well said, Prettybird

If we end up breaching the GFA it is not some minority terrorists in NI that we need to worry about annoying.
I would be more concerned about France, China, Russia and USA.

Our government has ratified an International agreement, it is morally and ethically bound to honor it.

I would be more concerned about France, China, Russia and USA

France is an EU member that agreed to Article 50 which entitles any member to leave the EU.

China won’t be the slightest bit bothered about GFA as they are confident they can go it alone.

Russia won’t be bothered either as if EU relaxes the border regulations for ROI in the event of no deal there will be pressure on EU to grant the same relaxation on the Eastern European borders.

USA is a mixed bag. Trump advocates UK to leave with no deal. Some in Congress seem to be against no deal.

Many errors made along the way to where we are now. My view is that biggest error was no contingency plan made for the possibility of either ROI or UK leaving the EU when Article 50 was passed that acknowledges a no deal may occur. What happened to;

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst

@MysteryTripAgain - Duty of governments is to preserve democracy by honouring majority vote

You only seem to be concerned about democracy when it suits you. I will ask again: Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

Had there not been a GFA the ROI would still have to install a border between ROI and NI if UK left the EU.

But the GFA exists. Prior to the GFA a border existed.

I will ask you again: are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

Can’t see how telling 17.4 Million people they can’t have what they voted for because it might annoy some minority terrorists in NI.

I suppose it is progress that you are no longer saying that the democratic votes of the people of NI and Ireland should be overridden by the desires you are ascribing to the 17.4 million. You have no idea what sort of leave anyone other than you voted for. Therefore stating that they cannot have what they voted for is disingenuous on your part.

However, the attitude that the wants of the majority override everything else is the attitude of a bully and is typical of the British establishment attitude towards Ireland for centuries. A working democracy requires tempering the wants of the majority with the need for a fair and just society for all. In this case, a brexit that does not threaten the GFA would do just that.

My view is that biggest error was no contingency plan made for the possibility of either ROI or UK leaving the EU when Article 50 was passed that acknowledges a no deal may occur.

Actually no, the biggest error was assuming the UK would act with integrity and uphold their obligations under an international peace treaty.

I've had to walk away from conversations in the office and in my local pub, shocked at some of the anti Irish shit being spouted

Sorry to hear this. I am originally from NE of England and it is supposed to well known for friendliness.

Actually no, the biggest error was assuming the UK would act with integrity and uphold their obligations under an international peace treaty

Had the treaty been revisited when Article 50 was passed and included a protocol of what would be done in the event of either ROI or UK left the EU. Not sure what the protocol would have said about the border, but should have been considered. There were several alarm bells, but all ignored;

2009 Article 50 passed, but no action.

2013 Cameron talks about a referendum, but no action.

2015 Cameron wins election, but no action.

@MysteryTripAgain - Had the treaty been revisited when Article 50 was passed and included a protocol of what would be done in the event of either ROI or UK left the EU

There was to need to revisit a treaty that was working perfectly fine. The assumption was that the parties to that treaty would act in a way that would not threaten the treaty. I again refer you to Ireland's position on Schengen to see an example of how a signatory would do that.

2009 Article 50 passed, but no action. 2013 Cameron talks about a referendum, but no action. 2015 Cameron wins election, but no action.

Same point re integrity. I can also imagine the uproar if, at any of those junctures, Ireland had suggested the UK might not act with integrity and could potentially threaten an international treaty to which they are a party.

I will ask you again:

1). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

2). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

Can’t see how telling 17.4 Million people they can’t have what they voted for because it might annoy some minority terrorists in NI.

17.4 million people didn't vote for anything. They voted against continued membership of the EU. If there had been anything to actually vote for we may not be in this mess now.

Can’t see how telling 17.4 Million people they can’t have what they voted for because it might annoy some minority terrorists in NI.

Do you really think that the ‘minority terrorists in NI are only going to attack here? Has it not occurred to you for one minute that these ‘minority terrorists’ are going to be so completely fucked of with the British Government that they might well take their fight over to Britain? Lucky you. You can have Isis and the terrorists from NI terrorising the UK.

I’m angry about the complete stupidity of people not giving a shit or being too selfish to care about the effect on NI. I’m also very very frightened for the people of NI. I’m also concerned that the people of Britain are going to be punished for the decision some have made, including the ignorant NI people that also voted to take us out of the EU.

But sure we’ll get our independence back. Yup, because the men and women on the street are going to gain their independence. What exactly does that mean?

I can also imagine the uproar if, at any of those junctures, Ireland had suggested the UK might not act with integrity and could potentially threaten an international treaty to which they are a party

Article 50 applies to ROI as well as UK. EU border laws were well known long before Article 50 was passed. What prevented a protocol being added to GFA to reflect Article 50 so that the treaty could be preserved?

There was to need to revisit a treaty that was working perfectly fine

It is the British Irish Council who are tasked by the GFA to take into account how EU policies may effect either North or South.

@MysteryTripAgain - Article 50 applies to ROI as well as UK.

Yes. And we have seen that Ireland has acted with integrity in upholding their obligations under the GFA in relation to their actions wrt the EU (i.e. Schengen).

It is the British Irish Council who are tasked by the GFA to take into account how EU policies may effect either North or South

And as soon as the lack of integrity being displayed by the UK was apparent, this was done.

I will ask you again:

1). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

2). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

@MysteryTripAgain

I've lived here for 17 years and I've never experienced anything like this until recently. I love the NE and have embraced it as my home. I have some amazing friends here and I've worked for the same company here for 16 years.

However the general sentiment here is that the Irish are being difficult and real shock that Ireland willingly wants to stay in the EU.

It's also really clear that a lot of people here (not all) don't have any emotional connection to NI and don't see them as equals in terms of Britishness. Will openly say that they would sacrifice NI if needed.

It genuinely hurts me that people are arguing over the validity of the GFA, article 50 and technicalities when what really matters is that the UK government and a lot of the Uk population is willing to take a risk on jeopardising the peace process which affects their own Uk citizens, their own people.

The argument that the violence may not erupt is a moot point for me. Those people matter, their quality of life matters so even the tiniest risk is not worth it.

I'm Irish, from Dublin. I'd love to see a united ireland. What I would love more and what is most important to me now is protecting and nurturing the peace that's been achieved to date.

Ill also say that I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing these views with the people who hear my Irish accent and approach me as they seem to think I'm accountable for or can explain the Brexit delay!

Duty of governments is to preserve democracy by honouring majority vote.

You mean like honouring the GFA @MysteryTripAgain? A properly conducted, legally binding referendum that lead to an international peace treaty that has benefitted the people of the UK for decades? And had more than 70% of the electorate vote for it?

Or do you mean the "advisory" vote for Brexit. An unregulated campaign and vote, that's sole aim was to save the Tory party?

You mean like honouring the GFA

Who was invited to vote for the GFA? I remember it was limited to NI and ROI. Considering troubles spilled over into UK mainland why were; England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿, Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 and Wales 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 not invited to vote? Might have received more attention if they had?

I can’t think of how any UK PM can tell the 17 Million from UK mainland who voted leave they are to be ignored in preference to the 2 Million that voted for the GFA.

Or do you mean the "advisory" vote for Brexit. An unregulated campaign and vote, that's sole aim was to save the Tory party?

Invoke of Article 50 changed the status from advisory to compulsory. However, several have said that the referendum was called as Conservative party were afraid of losing seats to UKIP.

Might have received more attention if they had?

It was all over the media: tv, print and internet. People all over the world commented. It received loads of attention.

I can’t think of how any UK PM can tell the 17 Million from UK mainland who voted leave they are to be ignored in preference to the 2 Million that voted for the GFA.

But they aren't being ignored, and the UK can leave the EU without undermining the GFA.

@MysteryTripAgain - Who was invited to vote for the GFA? I remember it was limited to NI and ROI.

I have told you repeatedly that Ireland did not have a referendum on the GFA.

Considering troubles spilled over into UK mainland why were; England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿, Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 and Wales 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 not invited to vote?

The GFA was not about the troubles. There is nothing in the GFA that directly impacts on daily life in Britain. The cessation of the troubles was a side-effect of the GFA. Why would you ask people who were not directly impacted by the provisions of the GFA to vote for it? Besides, the political tradition in the UK is for decisions to be made by your elected representatives.

I can’t think of how any UK PM can tell the 17 Million from UK mainland who voted leave they are to be ignored in preference to the 2 Million that voted for the GFA.

Oh dear. I thought you had stopped with that nonsense.

You have implied, but not directly stated, that you believe the UK electoral system is democratic. You have stated that, as it works for you, you don't want to change it. This is an electoral system that can result in the formation of a government by a party that has not receive the most votes. So it seems you only believe it is democratic when the result suits you.

Quite aside from that, there is absolutely nothing stopping the UK from leaving the EU whilst still fulfilling their obligations under the GFA.

I will ask you again:

1). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

2). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

However, several have said that the referendum was called as Conservative party were afraid of losing seats to UKIP.

They've said it because it's TRUE. Is Tory party preservation more important than the economic welfare of the country? Than our democracy that is being subverted to push this piece of fag packet legistlation through, to the detriment of the majority of citizens?

Is that your idea of democracy @MysteryTripAgain?

@Givemealittkewan

Sounds like you are having a hard time. NE was one of the largest leave voting areas of the UK even though it will likely suffer the most in the event of a no deal.

Some in England, particularly those in South think that if you draw a line from the Wash to the Bristol Channel, what is below the line is England and what’s above the line is rest (flat caps, thick heads and benefits scroungers).

NI, probably as it is not on the mainland, is seen by many as Irish rather than British. Based on posts from others there seems to be a difference of opinion within NI with some preferring to consider themselves as Irish as opposed to British. Nothing wrong with that, but probably adds to the mainland view that NI is Irish as opposed to British.

Guessing the tension comes from leave voters thinking their vote might be ignored in preference to GFA which UK mainland did not get chance to vote on. One of the many errors in the Brexit saga.

My parents have recently visited Dublin and they didn’t hear a single word about Brexit.

Hope things work out for you

Is that your idea of democracy

Honouring majority vote is democracy even if the result of the vote was a surprise. Had Cameron not called a referendum what would have prevented Farage going off and forming a Brexit Party or similar anyway?

Brexit party topped the EU votes even though they had only been formed a few weeks. So UK population obviously still interested in Brexit.

Whether or not UK is better off after leaving the EU remains to be seen. However, leave voters i know form NE of England give mostly the same two reasons for their choice;

Brussels (Barnier, Juncker) not elected

Immigration is out of control

Guessing the tension comes from leave voters thinking their vote might be ignored in preference to GFA which UK mainland did not get chance to vote on. One of the many errors in the Brexit saga.

You mean the tension comes from leave voters thinking/being told that it is a choice between having their vote ignored in preference to the GFA? The two are not mutually exclusive. The UK can leave the EU while still complying with their obligations under the GFA.

My parents have recently visited Dublin and they didn’t hear a single word about Brexit.

We're polite here. We don't blame individual British people for the current debacle. Unlike those @Givemealittkewan and many other Irish living in the UK are encountering.

Brexit is very much a topic of conversation in Ireland. There have been ads on the radio for quite some time advising businesses on what they need to do to prepare for no deal. The government have put in place preparations to protect our economy as much as possible.

I will ask you again:

1). Are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU, thus honouring the leave vote, whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

2). Do you believe the UK electoral system is democratic?

@MysteryTripAgain - Honouring majority vote is democracy even if the result of the vote was a surprise

So does that mean you don't believe the UK electoral system is democratic as you can get the government formed by a party that did not receive the majority vote. I do wish you would clarify by answering my questions with a simple yes or no.