Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 7

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads discussing VAT on independent school fees. The thread title is a headline from a Times article last autumn.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5237575-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5242586-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5280646-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5337850-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-6

“Parents would rather see seats going to gifted kids from disadvantaged backgrounds than social climbers who cannot afford the fees and are dragging down the provision for everyone else.”

I can only assume you consider yourself to be a parent of a “gifted kid..from a disadvantaged background,” and have been unable to access a scholarship and/or bursary to which you feel entitled, and now have an axe to grind as a result.

You claim “parents are up in arms” about the alleged “corruption” of schools giving fee discounts to staff but other than you I’ve never heard of anyone sharing this view. As others have said above I am more than happy for staff to be given generous fee discounts as it helps recruit and retain good staff, and means the staff are more invested in the school and making it a success. The suggestion that the fee discount is corruption is risible.

Either way, for the love of god would you stop littering this thread with the same repeated link and screenshots; it is beyond tedious and (very obviously!) does nothing to win anyone to your cause.

You are right.

Never wrestle with a pig as they say! My bad, no more engagement from me.

They’ve been reported, no sign of intervention from MNHQ though.

The (many) threads I've seen which have been spammed all have been at least tangentially related to school fees. They have a right to post their opinion on this aspect of bursaries and school fees. We all have the right to ignore them.

Oh lordy do we have to put up with more of it? It makes for a very dull thread.

🙄

I don’t think it’s totally black and white about reporting btw. It’s not an unqualified right to post whatever you want wherever you want on MN. Poster is free like anyone else to start their own thread to discuss a topic they’re interested in. That would be fine. Others can take part if they want. This thread however is for discussion and information-sharing for people who want to talk about VAT on education. It’s also fine to want to keep the focus on that.

There’s a ‘spam’ button in the Report’ section, so if people are posting repeated times on the same topic where it’s not relevant to the thread topic, then it can be considered spam and it can be reported. MN then decide what to do about it.
It’s fine to ignore just a few instances but if it’s excessive then the thread discussion is disrupted and it’s also misleading for new joiners for the chat who would think the discussion has now willingly strayed into a totally different area and so might not bother posting.

Is TwistyIzzy still around? I was wondering if the latest stats for the numbers of schools closing or merging have gone up beyond the norm and if the numbers of leavers and joiners to fee paying education have changed beyond the norm.

There's a Facebook group, Education Not Taxation, that's trying to collate this info. They have released a report based on Treasury, DfE and Independent School stats (so, pretty official). From their report: 127 schools have closed, and about 40k children have been displaced into the state sector (MUCH higher than estimated by the govt). The school closure numbers don't include merged schools, so there is disruption there too, that hasn't made way into the stats. The numbers are based on older data: I don't think they reflect what's been announced in the past 3 months (or more). From what I can see, there have been a lot of closures hitting the media a lot recently. I don't know who is keeping track of an up to date list.

There are significant job losses associated with the closures too - not sure how they will measure that.

On the flip side, I do not see any improvements coming to the state sector in the short to medium term, as further funding cuts there are surely going to be made - especially if the country prioritises defence and pensions over education and SEND. Any other country would offload some of the cost of education into a growing private sector to take the pressure off, but of course, ideologically, we are heading in a different direction. Those who can afford to stay in private in the elite schools will end up getting an even better education for their children, while the rest just fall further and further behind.

Thanks that’s really helpful/depressing.
So the posters on here were right:

We have now got disruption for private school kids (many of whom need the small classes and more sports for SEND reasons) who have to leave, or their school is closed or merged.

A worse situation for bright kids without that level of family income. they now can’t access places at the best state schools any more

worse situation for kids with SEND and teachers in state schools because bigger classes and SEND supper spread more thinly.

there will be loads more state and private pupils affected in different ways and these categories also overlap and magnify each other in many ways..

And with the money raised through VAT what improvements can the gov point to?
-and have they balanced it against the additional cost to the taxpayer directly from this policy- of having 40K more kids in state schools and teachers and school staff in closed or merged schools needing state support until they find work-? (if they can- in rural schools this won’t be easy)

If you look at the government’s get school information website, you can search for schools that have closed. You can filter by independent school and add closure dates. According to the government’s website, 83 independent schools have closed since this thread was started. 70 were ‘other independent schools’ and 13 of them were ‘other independent special schools’. At least one of them has amalgamated and has a linked establishment rather than closed closed IYSWIM.

Regardless of VAT, all schools are, or in the near future will be, affected by a massive decline in the birth rate.

The percentage fall in mainstream independent schools pupils since the introduction of VAT is much higher than for state schools. The Government’s own stats show that.

In the state sector, the most popular schools with great results and Ofsted ratings are very oversubscribed. Neither the state primary nor either of my children’s grammar schools are struggling for numbers. The opposite is the case! When the birth rate declines people think they are in for a greater chance and the numbers go up not down. It becomes two tier.

None of which negates the fact all schools are or will be affected by the massive decline in the birth rate…

This is a thread about the impact of VAT. I don’t know what point you are trying to make but the statistics are now showing that there has been a big impact. That in no way benefits state schools and has had a detrimental impact on some pupils, teachers and other staff who have lost their jobs.

I wonder if Andy Burnham’s government will use the VAT raised for the purpose they claimed in their manifesto?

VAT certainly hasn’t helped, but it cannot be claimed the sole cause of the increase in closures is the VAT issue.

Main cause though. Without a doubt. It is anomalous and spiteful and people react to that. All of it was predicted and it clearly was to close a few more private schools down. I guess the end game is to have a tiny amount of private schools left so their influence is vastly reduced and so that in most areas people just won’t have the option to opt out of state and a national curriculum. The next step will be forbidding homeschooling.

To forbid homeschooling, they would have to spend massively more on pupil referral units and special schools for the large numbers of children they are currently pretending can be educated in mainstream schools, but patently cannot. The idea that there is any capacity in the system for massively increased oversight of home educators and for keeping children in mainstream schools who shouldn’t be there on the shoestring budgets provided is for the birds.

Yes so sad. What a damaging policy.

Back in the first COVID lockdown people became annoyed when they realised that private schools had pretty much all gone online whereas many state schools had closed down. They demanded more from state schools when it came to lockdown two. A healthy private sector acts as a check and balance on state provision. It puts pressure on the state to provide a better service. That’s one of the reasons Labour want to close them down. They don’t want schools outside of their CONTROL influencing parents to demand more for their children.

NEW THREAD STARTED as it looks like this one will fill up.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5556562-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-8?reply=153647417

Except the private sector is not healthy and wasn’t even before VAT - even fairly inadequate private schools had already become unrealistically costly. The bank of Grandma and Grandpa was not going to last much longer, regardless.

Im not sure why you have included the quote about covid in your supposition there @Walkaround - seems unrelated. I agree that provate schools showed up state schools (the provision and budget for it - which private school families keep healthy by not sending their kids to state schools - not individual teachers/school bashing here). Anecdotally people moved to private earlier than planned after the first lockdown.