Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 7

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads discussing VAT on independent school fees. The thread title is a headline from a Times article last autumn.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5237575-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5242586-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5280646-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5337850-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-6

@Araminta1003 my understanding is that the EHCP process and SEN provision is under review as a whole. Surely you would welcome reviews if you think the current system isn’t fit for purpose?

@SheilaFentiman - it seems to me that successive Governments try and save money on children primarily, so even if I agree that the current system is not fit for purpose and is failing many children, I am not that hopeful that what they will come up with will be better. We need more resources and smaller class sizes and they just do not seem willing to spend the money to achieve that. Yet when it comes to the NHS they always seem to find the money magically.

Yes a review of SEN provision and process is underway.

However it’s increasingly clear that the primary aim is to cut costs, rather than to improve things. In particular by trying to reduce specialist provision and the availability of EHCPs/ something similar, and to move everyone into mainstream state schools. But fear ye not as Bridget is providing funding for some computers (perhaps for AI counselling, or maybe Oak National Academy lessons for all!) and to convert school broom cupboards into breakout rooms for children. Oh, but I don’t think I’m allowed to mention individual politicians or criticise their policies, naughty me.

www.gov.uk/government/news/740-million-allocated-for-10000-new-places-for-pupils-with-send

The SEN families I know are profoundly concerned about it, though all that said the cost of the existing, failing system is clearly unsustainable so I don’t know what the answer is. Not broom cupboards for breakout rooms.

Oh, but I don’t think I’m allowed to mention individual politicians or criticise their policies, naughty me.

Sigh. This was never said. Of course you can mention individual politicians and/or policies. It's the use of 'spiteful/vindictive/smirking' etc by some posters on these threads that's unhelpful.

Depends where you are. Many state schools because of the declining birth rate have low numbers. Here’s what the stats say/

Alas, in this financial climate, those state schools with smaller class sizes are economically unsustainable and likely to close or have to reduce their PAN (published admission number) so that they can have fewer classes and employ fewer expensive staff.

I’d say it’s more unhelpful to do this.

I know some won’t want to see it but it’s there.

Thanks for new thread @ICouldBeVioletSky

@strawberrybubblegumyour post on the last one re nom doms shows how clueless Labour were and are about ramifications of policies.

Now ten months in what was predicted is emerging. They are really poor on policy.

To do what?

Have those attributes as a Labour politician.

Which attributes?

The ones listed below, it’s only a couple of minutes ago

Gosh, you are strange.

I shall revert to my thread 6 policy of not engaging with your pointlessness.

I was just thinking that of your posts 😬

So many questions.

Anyway it’s too sunny to deal with the what why over and over.

Labour are as described below and fine if people say it.

Re reversal of this policy only Labour are mad enough to want it so if they’re out at next GE it’s likely to go.

They’re in third place rn, obviously the thing in their favour is tanking so early. But apart from mn usual support they are alienating people so we’ll see.

Totally right. We have had a senior closed near us and the knock on isn’t awesome for travel. However some of the village schools especially with their low numbers are unsustainable.

This suggests that you believe the only people still supporting Labour are MN posters. Surely you don't think this?

It also suggests they think a party less inclined to make populist decisions will get into power at the next election. It seems the British public have an unquenchable appetite for populist decision-making at the moment, whether that be attacking “benefit scroungers,” or the middle classes who can no longer afford private school fees. Imvho, people should be careful what they wish for, because it is possible for things to be made even worse, not better.

I don’t think it’s that. VAT is a populist decision.

As was smash the gangs and highest growth is turning into anti growth via NI policy. Labour are just not doing as they said and worse for them alienating people at the same time.

You can see the impact in their placement in polls.

There are too many on these threads who take their own wealth and privilege for granted, whilst saying the average should be taxed more.

Tax and interest rate policies over a quarter of a century have massively benefited the top quintile at a cost to the bottom quintile.

Everyone involved in finance and its supporting infrastructure (even if they weren’t working in it in 2008) has been given a huge tax benefit by the bank bailout. The Covid bailout again benefited the wealthiest at the expense of the poorest, and many were made very wealthy by some very shady government practices.

So, whilst you think you might be paying ‘twice’ for your children’s schooling, you probably aren’t even paying once. Tax policy does not exist in a vacuum.

In capitalism, wealth accrues to the hard working and risk taking. The corollary of this is that you have a boom and bust cycle and wealth is recycled, so whilst the rich benefit, the rich aren’t always the same people. Fortunes were made in the 1970s from the housing and stock market collapse, and that is how it should be. These days we have crony capitalism, the same people remaining forever wealthy and passing this on to their children.

If we genuinely want a successful country again, we need an huge uplift in education spending, maybe 50% plus. That would still take the state per pupil spend to around 50% of the median private school spend.

This should be funded, IMO, by a tiered property tax, which would also bring in the many foreign owned properties in central London which are unoccupied. This would counteract some of the wealth benefits derived from the bank bailout, QE and sub inflation interest rates for many years.

People will argue for a general wealth tax but that is too easy to dodge, especially for the very wealthy. To me, high inheritance tax on large inheritances is also ‘fair’, but again too easy to dodge.

However, interestingly when someone with an ASD or other neurodiversity diagnosis buys something like eg a Weighted Blanket (very useful for helping with overstimulation and sensory issues) it is possible - if the supplier has registered for this - to make a declaration that the item is being bought as a medical appliance rather than as an ordinary purchase, and the item is then zero-rated for VAT, whereas an ordinary person buying exactly the same item pays full VAT. A similar arrangement could be applied to school fee VAT if there was a political will for it. However it would apply just as much to very wealthy families with SEN children as it did to families with medium incomes who are just about scraping together the fees, and poorer families with just as great a need would still be stuck with what they can get for free

@RareGoalsVerge that is interesting, I didn't know that - although it isn't means testing, as you say.

But what would count as SEN for such an exception to be made? The approach has always been that most state schools can deal with most SEN unless a school is specified by an EHCP.(so SEN "alone" can't typically get a child a school place on appeal)

I understand if a pupil has an EHCP naming the private school than there is a VAT exception there. It's hard to see what "lesser" document could count as a direction to zero-rate VAT without the appeals system and exception system being out of sync.

@SheilaFentiman ,

‘I understand if a pupil has an EHCP naming the private school than there is a VAT exception there. It's hard to see what "lesser" document could count as a direction to zero-rate VAT without the appeals system and exception system being out of sync.’

For sure.

There is already a huge amount of Ed Psych shopping at private schools, and that is just for extra time in exams.

I have taught pupils who managed to get a diagnosis on their fourth attempt and some (very expensive) Ed Psychs get a name for giving diagnoses where others won’t. It would be infinitely worse if a 20% discount were at stake.