Do you agree with prayers in school?

[scotlou]

My ds recently started primary 1 in our local primary school. It's a great school - 35 kids in total - 2 teachers and only 5 kids in P1 so we were more than happy to send him.
When we visited last year we told the head that we do not believe that religious observance should form part of school life (my dh and I do hold certain beliefs but think that religion should be part of home life and not school). She explained that in Scotland (don't know about rest of UK) it is a statutory requirement for schools to have a daily religious observance and that this school said a prayer every morning. She said though that the kids were not compelled to take part and could sit quietly during that time instead.
We do not want to make our child different so do not want to exclude him during this part of the day. Of course, now he has started school he has told us how he "prays" every morning - and does not want to stop taking part! I don't want to make a big deal of it - spoke to the head again who was very understanding and said my ds could help with dinner money or something during that time - but I really don't want him to feel or look different. Does anyone else have this problem?

It's part of educational legislation in England, too - but widely flaunted, I believe. Heads often use it for a time of thought, exploration and collective activity - but are picked up on it by ofsted.

Personally, I think that state schools cannot possibly operate democratically and with equal opportunities whilst this rule is in place, and that it is inappropriate.

It s a clear cut decision imo
wihter you put up with it and the novelty wears off f or him or you withdraw him
depends ont he strenght of your conviction

I'm in Wales and I don't know what the policy is, but I was surprised that DD1 (now in Reception) has been singing hymns and saying bits of the Lord's Prayer. I somehow thought that they would learn about all different religions, not just Christianity, and I am pretty sure there are older children in the school who are not Christians.
Part of the problem is that I am an atheist and so would prefer not to have a hymn singing daughter . I haven't spoken to the school about it and like you, I don't want her to be "different", so I probably won't.
Not much help, I know, but I know where you're coming from.

If your son is enjoying this part of school, surely you could just let him get on with it?
I'm sorry, I don't fully understand I guess.
I guess I am not religous enough, or anti religion enough to worry.
I want my kids to learn about as many religions as possible, whether I teach them - or they learn from school or others.

Oh dear, thats coming from someone who was raised a Catholic!

Hi Scotlou. I was a childrens' worker for a Christian charity before I had ds. Part of my job was to take a Christian assembly in local primary schools. As these schools are all very multi-faith, I would be very careful with my use of words. Schools do have to have a broadly Christian act of worship as part of school life, but there are ways of doing this appropriately. I would hope your school would be doing it along the lines that I adhered to. In my situation, it was once false move and I would be asked not to return to the school.

The approach nowadays is that all Biblical teaching should be prefixed with "Christians believe..." or "the Bible says..." It shouldn't be presented as Truth (even though personally I believe it is .

Similarly for a prayer I would always start with "I'm going to talk to God now, if you agree with what I've said then you can say 'Amen' at the end, because 'Amen' means I agree, but I would like you all to sit quietly and listen" and then say a simple prayer. I could not and would not say "Let us pray" for example.

I would hope therefore that although your ds is in the room while a prayer is said, that he in no way feels that he is praying (unless he wants to obviously). I don't think your head could do much more than she already has done - she sounds very accomodating and it sounds like a lovely school.

I will be in this position next year - and am torn between thinking that the more parents who withdraw their kids the quicker the gvt will change the law and allow schools to deliver assemblies and RE in ways that suport all children equally - and not wishing to make a fuss, agreeing, in a humanist, secular way with most of the morals and philosophies within christianity, and feeling confident that as DS comes from a highly multi-faith/cultural background, he is only ever going to understand it within that context!

I dont see how this can cause him any problems if anything its a good thing. Praying is very relaxing and a time to reflect.

Growing up as a child I prayed at school and found it settled all the children, for a few minutes we said prayers which involved saying nice things, maybe we prayed for someone or just said thank you or the teacher would tell us to say our own prayers in our head. So whether I actually prayed or just thought about something, it was a quiet relaxing moment which did not have a bad effect on me.

I do think though that its a hard subject and personal.

in a way if you dont believ in it it doesnt matter

I don't support prayers in school. I would like schools to teach what religion is but not advocate any one religion as right.

I agree with anorak. I had religion shoved down my throat at school - to the point where I was very, very scared of burning in hell for eternity - and I do not want the same for my children.

The children in primary schools in England are taught aspects of the main world religions, covering quite a broad spectrum of beliefs and customs. The daily act of collective ( mainly Christian) occurs in schools to reflect the fact that we live in a christian country. As Muddaofsuburbia rightly said it is made clear in most schools that it is what Christians believe, acknowleging that not everyone holds the same beliefs. Obviously if the school is Catholic or C of E this is not the case.

missed out the worship bit of that sentence! (Used to be a teacher & RE specialist)

scotlou we have this problem too - I wrote to the Independent's education adviser about this and was lucky enough for the problem to be featured - here it is
I'd also started a thread on here about it.

In the end we decided to do nothing for the time being and educate our daughter about these things at home, i.e. yesterday she said that Jesus gives us water (cringe) so we explained that Jesus does not give us water, and that water comes from the oceans etc. Same with evolution and such things.
Our problem with taking this further is that I really don't want to rock the boat and that I don't think I can find other parents who agree. Over half the children at my daughter's school are American from a nearby army base and from often fiercely religious families.
It makes me very angry that these things are thrust upon my child, when to me it's on par with astrology or crystal healing. I don't care what sort of things people teach children in their own home, but I really don't agree with dd being taught strangers' beliefs as 'truth'.

I love them.
I like praying before bed too
Don't think it is damaging at primary school, they haven't got to the eternal fire and damnation yet. Just
be good to your pals and look after your mummy, animals like boats, donkeys are good to sing about.
I did make sure they taught other religions, very important to me, i hate one religion be proclaimed the correct one
I'm not letting them go to a religious high school though, they are control by fear institutes

I want my children to be taught an ethical framework. I want them to have a sense of right and wrong, of violence and non-violence, of what is fair and what isn't. But I don't want prayers.

I'm fairly neutral on this, but isn't it better that children are taught about christianity and then have the information at a later date to make up their own minds. I was quite relieved that it's discussed in school otherwise my dds wouldn't get the information at home and I would in effect be limiting their right to choose.

I'm a Christian but I know where you're coming from. I don't do prayers on an evening with the boys but i pray for them myself. DS1 and 2 occasionally go to Sunday school but I don't force them as dad is aethiest plus I think they should make up their own minds and not have it drummed into them. DS1 has a friend as school who calls his friends bad for reading/watching Harry Potter as his parents tell him so.
It must be very difficult for you but at least your school sounds like it understands. Like has already been said it will no doubt wear off once he's older.

I don't think prayers are appropriate in school.

Cartrefle I don't quite understand "we live in a christian country" - most people in this country don't engage in active Christian worship, and even if they did I don't see why this should be imposed on absolutely everyone at school. I totally respect that we have a vitally important Christian history which should be taught to children in school, but that's very different from expecting all the atheists, agnostics, muslims, jews, buddhists etc to actively engage in Christian worship every day?

I know this is a hot potato and I really don't want to offend anyone!

FWIW, after 7 years at a county primary school with daily prayers and wide-ranging RE lessons, which covered all the major religions and included visits to a synagogue and a mosque, DS2 at 11 has decided after his first RS lesson in Y7 (discussing atheism, monotheism and polytheism) (???) that he is an atheist. I tossed in agnosticism as a middle way but he was quite definite.

The fact that the rest of the family are that way inclined too might have had some influence, but it hasn't been discussed a lot, and he's made up his own mind. I think if you're going to start saying "no religion at school" it makes things like nativity plays hard to justify, and judging from our kids' experiences it is the home influence that matters most, whatever they actually do at school.

The daily prayer was always v v bland and inoffensive IME (having attended a few assemblies). Whatever the topic was it would be something like dear God, thank you for so and so and help us to be more such and such, amen.

I have to say that I am really surprised that it's still a part of the curriculum that there should be a Christian act of worship. As Pidge just said, most people in this country don't attend church, even those who purport to be be Christians.

I am a Christian ( a real happy clappy born again one no less) and I would much rather there was no hint of "christian" worship in schools. Worship is faith based and nothing to do with education IMO. Yes you can encourage children to undertake their personal search ( I think that's what the Scottish 5-14 curriculum calls it) but to have an act of worship presupposes belief and that's a pretty big supposition to make!! Good grief, the majority of church goers aren't Christians so why would primary school children from atheist homes be?! and the teachers who are expected by law to present this act of worship aren't believers either - that's why organisations like the one I worked for exist. It's up to believers to share their faith appropriately, not for schools to demand that it's "taught".

It's clinging to the past to say this country is Christian. Only 1 in 10 of the population attend church and an even smaller proportion actually claim that Jesus is Lord.

A Christian act of worship should be for believers and those genuinely interested and it should certainly be led by a Christian; not an overworked teacher who doesn't believe.

JanH - I don't have a problem with nativity plays etc. That's all part of learning the stories of Christianity. And it's theatre after all - and we don't necessarily believe everything that goes on there! For me that's different from engaging in an act of worship. In fact I don't even have much of a problem with hymn singing - so much of our beautiful music has a religious heritage, where would we be without our masses and requiems?

as a pratcising catholic and a teacher this is close to home. I pray with my daughter every night although it is very loose prayer, we simply listen to some music or have a silent time together and talk about what has happenned in the day and who we want to be looked after and if we are sorry for anything or especially proud of anything we have done. Apart from my daughter's spiritual development I find this a time for me and my dd alone that brings us together. From newborn we always had still time before bed at night which started off as massage and now three years later is now prayers and a foot and back rub. I think being still and reflective is a useful skill for anyone of any age of any creed.

As for prayers in school I have taught in a faith setting and a non denominational comp. By law the children have to have an act of worhsip that reflects the christain heritage of our country. However as a Christian myself I hate nothing more than hearing year eleven drone the Lord's prayer out. As a form tutor in a non faith school we would have a thought for the day which was mostly provided by the students which we would discuss, it might be something from the news, something that had happened in school. As a Christian I would say what my take would be but I would stress that was my own opinion and they may think differently. Sometimes we would have prayers but we would talk about what they meant and read them in our heads so no one felt they would stand out if they did or did not join in. we would also have prayers from different religious faiths and look at writings from an athiest perspective. i really rhink that in an age where we pressure kids to pass endless tests there is a need for children to have access to have times like this for reflection and spirtual devlopment. This need not be religious as I ahve said but simply a focus on how we can grow as people and members of a community.

However it is hard to do this properly in twenty mins when you also have money to collect, diaries to check and a register to do!

Good post nikkim.

Our experience in some ways echoes yours so far Janh. Dh is a Baptist Minister, so dss have been going to church and sunday school 'for ever'; their school is not a church school but does have a Christian focus to assemblies and RE teaching. But we (and school) have always taught ds1 to think for himself, and his current stance is atheistic ... he doesn't believe in God, Jesus, or the Bible!
He "would like to believe in heaven", but doesn't

I would hate him to be 'indoctrinated' by us or anyone else, and am delighted that he is thinking about issues beyond the immediate and material, and drawing conclusions for himself.
He's only 7 by the way.