Do you agree with prayers in school?

[scotlou]

My ds recently started primary 1 in our local primary school. It's a great school - 35 kids in total - 2 teachers and only 5 kids in P1 so we were more than happy to send him.
When we visited last year we told the head that we do not believe that religious observance should form part of school life (my dh and I do hold certain beliefs but think that religion should be part of home life and not school). She explained that in Scotland (don't know about rest of UK) it is a statutory requirement for schools to have a daily religious observance and that this school said a prayer every morning. She said though that the kids were not compelled to take part and could sit quietly during that time instead.
We do not want to make our child different so do not want to exclude him during this part of the day. Of course, now he has started school he has told us how he "prays" every morning - and does not want to stop taking part! I don't want to make a big deal of it - spoke to the head again who was very understanding and said my ds could help with dinner money or something during that time - but I really don't want him to feel or look different. Does anyone else have this problem?

Nikkim - I really appreciate your input to this. I do actually still have Christian beliefs - but do not think that any kind of religion should be "imposed" on my son at school - although I do feel he should learn something about many different faiths. It is only when we all have some understanding of others beliefs that this world can start being a more peaceful place (that's my opinion anyway!)
I also do not think it is right for children to recite words just for the sake of schools putting a tick in the box to the religious observance part of the curriculum.
It is interesting to me that so many of you share my opinion on this. I though my dh and I were unique!

One thing I like about the US system is that there is the separation of church and state, i.e. no praying in schools. (There is discussion about whether to remove the line "One nation under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance that they recite every day.)

I have found that almost all pre-schools, at least in my area, are church-based, and as they are private schools they are free to do what they wish. My 2 year old just started pre-school 2 mornings a week and comes home with pieces of art like a picture of herself with the words "Jesus loves me" written on it. They say prayers and listen to bible stories. It doesn't bother me too much because I don't think that it has any meaning to her at her age. A bible story to her is just like any other story.

My 5 year old just started at a private kindergarten which is, thankfully, non-denominational. One thing I really like about her school is that they don't have formal religion lessons, but they do talk about character and values. Every month they have a different value that they talk about. For instance, this month it's honesty. Last month it was compassion. I love the fact that she's learning things like that at school and I especially love that it's not under the guise of religion.

I would be very uncomfortable if she was at school in the UK praying etc., because she is still at the age that she believes every last word her teacher tells her.

But scotlou, I don't know if there's anything you can do, especially without making your son feel uncomfortable. You might just have to grin and bear it.

I am also horrified and rather cross that religious worship (as opposed to information about religion) is mandatory in schools. I think that's wrong. I also hate the position it will puts me in as a parent of contradicting the school, which I'd prefer not to do.

If ds is happy then could you possibly let him carry on with the prayers but as you are doing let him know that is not what everyone believes as you don't and tell him more about what you believe in? There was a great thread about this a couple of months ago with some lovely ideas about explainations.I am a practising catholic and had catholic education until I was 14. Then when I went away to Uni I sheid away from it, didn't really go back to church until I was getting married. When we had children even though dh doesn't have any strong beliefs we both agreed they would be brought up as practising catholics and we have actively sought out a catholic school for dd. She loves going to mass and saying her prayers and always starts with hello God it's Poppy here... LOL. The point I am trying to make is even if she decides at a later date she doesn't want to practise Catholicism I feel we have at least given her a base to make that decision from. If you don't give them anything how can they choose anything? At dd's school whilst Catholicism is a huge part of their schooling they also actively learn about other religions and about accepting them as other people's choice. However I for one got fed up at dd's pre school (non religious) about the fact that they taught them all about other countries and other religions but she was not taught anything re christianity.Balance and an open mind is the key in my opinion. Don't want you to think I am saying you are not giving ds a base just expressing my general opinion.

Neither do I want to feel obliged to make him feel different by removing him from part of school life. It's not, IMO, a fair position to put children in.

DP's view (I emailed him about a MN debate, most unusual):

We do live in a fundamentalist state - i.e. our head of state is head of the church of England, personally anointed by God to rule by divine right....

May be useful to have a vaccination against this sort of thing by attending religious assembly :-)

MI - not in Scotland [ grin]

A vaccination would be good but then we would hvae to consider whether to have an all in one vaccination against all religions or will we allow parents to have vaccinate for each religion individually!!?

I really don't know what I'd do in your position Scotlou. I'd probably just tell ds that God isn't real, he's just like the characters in his story books and that you can't really talk to him but you can think about things during prayer time. But that puts you in the unpleasant position of directly contradicting his teachers.

While doing my training I attended a lecture that was saying that the problem with religious education is that it is too nice and wishy wasy. Trying to please everybody and stressing that although all faiths and the atheistic approach have their differences they all like each other really and we all just want to be good people. He said this is tosh and religions are fundamentally different and that we are denying the essence of faith to say this. At first i thought he was a grumpy old bugger who was promoting racial hatred but infact he was proably right, although of course this needs to be done with care and sensitivity. When Religious Education and thoughts for the day become wishy washy all to do with labelling fonts and about being nice!! it is a waste of time. When it becomes a challenge it is stretching pupils, introducing them to critical thought and to challenge there own assumptions and prejudices. In today's world this is much needed.

going off the point and on a rambe here but you have got me going on a topic very close to home.

I can understand where you're coming from but tbh mine and dh's family all went to schools that had prayer as a normal part of the routine....we just used to take it on the chin and get on with it, it never bothered my parents and we weren't a hugely religious family by any means...I do think it's important to have some religious outlet for children when there are so many busy schedules, after school clubs, rushing aroung here there and everywhere....a bit of quiet and praying for other people to be helped or thanking someone for what you have will surely do them no harm....as long as parents don't ram going to church down their throats (which is what used to happen to us) which was far more boring to an 8 year old than a few Our Lords...

Yes, but religious education and religious worship are very, very different things. No objection to the former (though would much prefer it to be moral educational or ethical or some such) but do object to the latter in schools.

But evolution is just a theory Not going there today btw.

I know they are different I was just getting carried away in my own little thought bubble, sorry aloha!

I can fully understand the problems with religious worship having been in assemblies where everyone bar one student wasa muslim but the head teacher felt he had to say the lord's prayer in assemblies as we were in danger of failing our ofsted!!

The point I was trying to make that if you are not in a faith school religious worship can atke many forms and a skilled and dedicated teacher should be able to fufill ofsted requiremnts and not offend parents who (quite rightly) do not little johnny to be forced into prayer or feel uncomfortable for opting out. Unfortunately busy teachers (or dare I say lazy ones) simply say the our father and think they have ticked that box on their lesson plan.

If this is an issue I would speak to you child's form tutor or RE teacher who may have the necessary training to deal with this.

yes, but Mudda - even within Creationism, I think 'Jesus gives us water' is a bit far-fetched, isn't it? I think Noah experienced at least one big flood before the birth of Christ....

I am in the "disestablishmentariast" camp (do I get the price for the longest word used on Mumsnet today?!). I don't think that a specific religion should have any role in the state - or in schools.

I think the French have it right with their strict rules about keeping ALL religion out of schools (although I think they have taken it too far with their ban on the hajib and other "religious" clothing).

I don't mind about schools teaching about religionS (plural) - I think it is an important part of understanding the world that we live in. And it is important to teach values - but you don't have to be religious to have "good" ethics and morals.

One of the reasons I am ATTRACTED to the primary school that I want ds to get into is that there would be a large number of Asians at it - and they make a point of teaching the children about ALL the religious festivals. For that reason, as an open minded atheist, I probably won't be put in the dilemma that Scotlou is in, as the "act of worship" will need to be EXTREMELY "broadly Christian" in nature!

I do think that the home is the place for teaching - and re-inforcing - what religious beliefs you have, and that school is NOT the place to do this.

Off topic slightly:

back on topic now...

surely religion is as important as history, geography as it gives our children a very broad picture of how we came about, what the world is like and tbh scotlou if your ds doesn't want to stop taking then why not let him carry on...just by taking him out he will feel different....like have said before it's no big deal if all generations before have had to do it so why not treat it like any other lesson and let your ds be like the other children....I do think you're making a big deal over a little deal tbh...sorry to be blunt but am being honest

No Lavender - Scotlou is talking about a Christian act of worship not religious education per se - of course there is a place for RE in schools, but most people here agree that an act of worship is a different kettle of fish.

how long is the praying for scotlou?

Lavender1 - I think the point here is about the the act of "religious WORSHIP" - rather than teaching aobut religion. ie this is SEPARATE to the "lessons".

Oops - muddaofsubburbia had already made the point.

ikwym but we used to pray in assemblies every day (ds just told me he does for 1/2 a minute a day)...what harm can a few mintues a day do really...

Ks, but harvest festivals, Easter and Christmas are all deeply pagan and pre-Christian and thus totally acceptable in principle to atheists I remember taking ds to a church hall playgroup (didn't realise it was a religious one) and the leader asked all these uncomprehending two year olds why we had eggs at Easter and I was just LONGING to put up my hand and explain about Oestre and spring fertility rites and the pagan belief that hares laid eggs...but thought better of it! Will talk about all this to ds though, in time.