Admissions tutors, is this true?

[scaryteacher]

Read this in the DT www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8320761/Are-you-ready-for-the-latest-university-challenge.html

Is it true, or is what a friend with a lad in his first year at Uni said correct - it's the grades that count, not the personal statement? The admissions tutors where he is said they don't read the personal statements, but make offers purely on the grades achieve at GCSE and those predicted at A level.

My lad is in Year 10, and we have all this to go through in a couple of years - I'm beginning to wonder if I wouldn't be better to get him to apply in Europe rather than go through all the English system palava. Based on the article, he wouldn't get in as we live abroad, Saturday jobs are hard to find if you not fluent in Dutch and French; he's doing DofE, and helps out with cubs. He will board for sixth form in UK, and do A levels, but Maastricht might be a better bet and closer than the UK.

That is one terrifying article! Thanks for that.

Maastricht is an excellent Uni. I would apply there anyway!

How good do you think your German would have to be to study in Germany?

ds1 is currently flying in German, though he's only yr9. But as a Science nut, he may not have the space to take it further than AS Level at sixth form. (Will do sciences + Maths probably.)

He has a German penpal and will hopefully do some exchanges out there over the next few years.

Do you think studying at a German university would be an option for him to consider?

Generally about B2 on the European framework, which is A-level standard, but that's proved by taking the DSH, test DaF, one of the Goethe-Institut certificates or a couple of other certificates. Details here (hopefully that's the English, apologies if I pasted the link in the Erasmus email which was in French).

French?! German...

Email in French led to link in German hopefully posted in the English version.

I need to go back to bed, clearly.

Maastrict teaches many of its courses in English.

Why did anyone ever think that non-academic activities would be anything other than a tie-breaker for academic courses? [Is it a recent phenomenon because breaking the link between centile and grade makes too many candidates indistinguishable, so other markers may have to be used?]

Scary but not, I think, particularly accurate. I work in a university. I don't deal with undergraduate admissions but I do have a lot to do with postgraduate admissions and I hear about the UG stuff. Also I have a daughter who's just going through UCAS applications this year. I think it varies from subject to subject and from university to university, which is probably what you would expect. A programme with lots of super-bright applicants per place probably spends less time looking at each application in detail. However, it causes an enormous amount of work and misery all round when you take an applicant who proves not to be up to it and needs a lot of support, so it does not pay to admit by numbers - so we think in my department, anyway.

Cambridge and Oxford tutors have both said repeatedly that they aren't all that bothered what else a student does outside study and that the key thing there is the grades. There are some exceptions - if an applicant mentions that s/he does something that is clearly very time-consuming and difficult, but has stuck with it for many years and done well and still managed to get good GCSEs and A levels, that shows stickability, stamina and good time management skills (unless, of course, the parents have organised the whole thing and the student has had little option but to go along with it).

Also, it is just not true to say that top grades are not achievable outside 'top schools'. This is the sort of alarmist nonsense that causes great stress and causes a headlong rush to get your child tutored (thanks to a great Gary Larsen cartoon, I always think of 'neutered' when I hear that word). It is not doing any child any favours to push and push him/her through school, tutored to within an inch of his/her life, sweating blood to get good exam results, leaving him/her to discover only at university that s/he has no self-motivation.

The article does indeed sound frightening. However, I can tell you that DC1 gained a place at their first choice university, despite having slightly lower than required grades, because of the personal statement! GCSE gradea were outstanding but due to a sudden prolonged illness in A2 year, A levels were disappointing. Took a gap year. Applied to several good universities ( admittedly not Oxbridge, but that had never been the plan)and got unconditional offers from all of them. The first choice one was the only one that invited DC1 for interview and they made it very clear that the only reason they even considered DC1 was because of the quality of the personal statement. At the interview, DC1 was told that there were about 300 applicants for around 30 places and that all the others had the exam grades, but that the personal statement had singled DC1 out as a good potential candidate. A few days after the interview, they also issued a non conditional offer. DC1 has been there a couple of years now, consistently getting outstanding results.

We never had anything to do with either the choice of university, or the personal statement. All we did was support the choice made by DC and read over the final PS to check for glaring errors or omissions.

Might be worth mentioning that at the interview, the course director commented that it was pleasing to read a PS that gave an honest picture of somebody who really wanted to study the subject but had other interests, rather than someone who thought everything mentioned should relate to the subject. Also that it made a change to read a PS where the candidate did not feel obliged to use up every last one of the available characters, rather, was comfortable enough to finish it when all the relevant information had been given.

Frakkle, if we are still in Belgium, then he may well apply to Maastricht. Leuven would be even better as he could live at home and get the bus each day, but although I know some of the MA courses there are in English (currently gearing myself up to apply), I haven't yet investigated if the Undergrad courses are taught in English.

If he wanted to do English Lit he could go anywhere! I did a year of English Lit at the Unversity of Liege and every word of it was in English.

There is a sense in which the PS is something of a 'tie-breaker', because anything else would be unfair. There's no guarantee that the student even wrote it themself. Some of them do display quite interesting things though, which can count in a student's favour. It's not a question of ticking off a list of Saturday jobs and clubs though; there's no reason why most academics would look upon someone like that as a better candidate for their course than someone who loves embroidery (e.g.!), and the catalogue of DofE awards and so on doesn't generally do all that much to show me why someone is interesting and interested. Lots of kids are at schools which make them do those things anyway. I'm fortunate in that I get to interview my candidates, and the PS becomes quite important there as you can probe further and challenge them on the things they said. If your DS applies for somewhere that interviews, he really needs to be able to back up what he says. In my view, it needs to be a statement from the heart about why they want to take this course in life, not a place in which they present a conveyer belt of assorted accomplishments.

conveyer conveyor

Like Sayithowitis, I have a DD now at university and the personal statement definitely swung it for her.

I've only had direct experience of medical school admissions and the process varies from place to place. I'm pretty sure the same is true for other courses though. Some select for interview based solely on GCSE grades. Some screen by academic results then operate a points system based on information in the PS then call the top points scorers for interview. The other medical aptitude tests also play a part at varying stages in the selection process.

Once a candidate gets to the interview stage then the PS is definitely going to come into play so, yes, it is important.

The entrance requirements and selection proceedures are available on each institution's website so you have to do your research and work out a strategy.

The essential thing to know about the personal statement is that admissions tutors aren't interested in a list of work experience placements, voluntary work, Duke of Ed's awards etc. They are interested in what the candidate has learned/gained from the experience. Quality not quantity.

When I say 'you' have to do 'your' research, I mean the student! DD did her own research and went to the open days. Meanwhile I checked requirements online. At the final choice stage we compared information and narrowed it down choosing first those places she felt she would like to live in for 5 or 6 years, and those which were likely to appreciate her strong points when selecting. She ruled out those which were difficult to get to by train or which made visiting for open days over-complicated.

She wrote her own PS which was 'checked' at school and came back a contradictory mess. She decided to stick by her original version which I checked for spelling etc. and helped her prune.

She made great play of her musical achievements but used this to emphasise her ability to work both alone or in groups, and to achieve excellence. She had very little work experience because it is difficult to insure under 18s but she used what she had done to show that she had given thought to what she had learned.

The feedback she got from interviews - all successful - was that they loved the music bit and liked the fact that she was passionate about an outside interest. All were very impressed with her PS.

Accidentally but very fortunately, she had applied to places where 75% of candidates chosen for interview are likely to get offers. This meant that she could approach each interview with a certain amount of confidence. They had used the PS heavily in the pre-interview selection so that the interview itself was just a final and quite enjoyable hurdle. Some reject up to 75% or more at interview.

To get back to the OP's original point that it is a palaver, yes it is. But the good thing about the various permutations in the selection proceedure is that there is opportunity for the student to play to his/her strengths.

The student who has not netted a whole raft of A*s at GCSE might be ignored by some universities but is still in with a chance at other universities. Conversely, a student with brilliant GCSE's who is likely to flop at interview might be better advised to stake it all on those which choose by public exam results.

I could write a book on it!

I think hope the article is scaremongering at least to some extent.

Oxbridge and some other courses/places (eg Birmingham - medicine) are known to place much greater emphasis on grades than extra curriculars, but I think some places do value extra curriculars too (probably not if the grades are too much lower as a result though). I'm sure that's always been the case.

Scary, I think your son could big up the whole cultural experience of living abroad in his personal statement and that would likely be well received and compensate for any perceived shortfalls in extra curricular things (which sound fine to me in any case).

But Maastricht sounds worth investigating for him in any case too.

I know my sil was scrabbling around desperately trying to find extenuating circumstances for her dds. Glandular fever, depression, illness in the family - all highly questionable - were cited.

I must admit I am already chewing my lip with anxiety about "work placements". If you live out in the sticks with no important contacts, you're stuffed. Surely admissions tutors realise that if an applicant lives in London they're more likely to have been able to secure a snazzy work experience gig than someone who lives in Berwick upon Tweed?

I think its a pile of the usual journalistic hype. Even in London getting "relevant" work experience is down to who Daddy or Mummy know. For medicine you do need to try to get some medical experience (but volunteering with Red Cross or St John's may help if you can get some time in A and E).

Oxbridge repeatedly say they want people who show they are keen on the subject and ignore the rest of the PS.

Something alturistic is easy if you need it, as most schools run regular rag weeks, pack boxes for Christmas, sing to the elderly, and anyway there is that D of E service element. A lot of it would be spinning whatever you have done to show its relevance. Eg. my sons hours programming games on the computer, becomes his self-taught programming skills, applied to a variety of areas.

However we're also considering the Netherlands, as it sounds quite good there.

You couldn't be much more in the sticks than my DD when it came to work experience. It was meagre but in the end she netted more offers than a fellow pupil who had extensive experience. It's all in the presentation.

The biggest problem is that they make their UCAS applications when a good number of them are still under 18 and so hospitals/nursing homes won't look at them - unless they have a parent to pull strings - and cite insurance issues as the reason. DD asked our GP and did work experience with him then he gave her a reference to a local nursing home so she was able to do some voluntary work.

Birmingham is, I think, the first to make offers each year so it snaffles candidates who have applied to Oxbridge and perhaps don't get the required BMAT result or don't make it through the Oxbridge interview. Leeds drags it out right through April but probably has the most stringent and all-encompassing selection process of all.

Best advice for prospective medics is to take the UKCAT test in August and then decide on a strategy as some med schools don't require UKCAT or place less emphasis on it. Leeds only uses it as a tie-breaker at the very last stage. The BMAT result doesn't come out until after they have made their UCAS applications so is a hell of a gamble. DD took a risk and applied to 2 med schools which require BMAT and pulled it off but it was a nail-biter.

You need to show you made the most of your opportunities. Any sensible admissions person can see that those are different for different people.

"Read this in the DT www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/ 8320761/Are-you-ready-for-the-latest-university-ch allenge.html

"Is it true, or is what a friend with a lad in his first year at Uni said correct - it's the grades that count, not the personal statement? The admissions tutors where he is said they don't read the personal statements, but make offers purely on the grades achieve at GCSE and those predicted at A level."

--- This is true of some universities, but not of all. (Perhaps connected to the applicants to places ratio for particular courses in particular places, and the fact that A-level grades are a fairly coarse sieve in some circumstances.)
--- note how much of the Telegraph article is driven by an interview with a man who runs a tutoring agency: his remarks about GCSE choices, as printed, are pretty close to drivel. However I suspect this is in fact a misprint and should read GCE - that is, A-levels. How much else is believable? Take no notice.

The article did seem to be an ad for tutoring...I'd like ds to go to an RG uni, but if we stay where we are, then Maastricht is a good option as is Leuven.

I wish you write a book on it Austenreader - Idiots guide to University applications. You'd have a ready market on MN!

Sorry, I meant I wish you'd write a book.

For RG law at a not super-prestigious uni - I would say grades plus personal statement. They are read and with endless 3A applicants they can make a difference - but as viola has already said it's about making the most of each individual's opportunities not necessarily comparing - admissions tutors understand the contexts.

Universities are looking for kids that are bright and capable and are interested in the subject with the capacity to carry it through - this is what the ps shows and can tip the balance either way (I've seen some dredful ps statements eg i want to be a lawyer bc mummy and daddy's friends are ...)

But it is about making smart choices - if choices are all Oxford/ucl/Bristol/Durham/Warwick the student has left no themselves no safety net at all.

I thought the article was overblown

scaryteacher Feel free to pick my brain while I'm still up to date.

I only have detailed knowledge of medical schools though.