Admissions tutors, is this true?

[scaryteacher]

Read this in the DT www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8320761/Are-you-ready-for-the-latest-university-challenge.html

Is it true, or is what a friend with a lad in his first year at Uni said correct - it's the grades that count, not the personal statement? The admissions tutors where he is said they don't read the personal statements, but make offers purely on the grades achieve at GCSE and those predicted at A level.

My lad is in Year 10, and we have all this to go through in a couple of years - I'm beginning to wonder if I wouldn't be better to get him to apply in Europe rather than go through all the English system palava. Based on the article, he wouldn't get in as we live abroad, Saturday jobs are hard to find if you not fluent in Dutch and French; he's doing DofE, and helps out with cubs. He will board for sixth form in UK, and do A levels, but Maastricht might be a better bet and closer than the UK.

Most universities do look at persanal statements

So, at the end of the (long) day, it's all down to pure luck. And I'm not saying this without any basis having just come out last week of this year's Medicine application cycle.

Not really, peteneras. Luck plays a role, inevitably, in every part of life; academics can't eliminate that factor. But everyone I know who does admissions work puts in hours and hours of work and discussion to try and see justice done. It's an imperfect business, but it's no true to say it's 'pure luck'.

How do you explain:

Fact: Medicine

(1) Applicant rejected by Birmingham but got into Cambridge (last year)?

(2) Applicant with 12 A*s (100 percent ? no ?soft? subjects) GCSE/IGCSE including languages (Latin, Ancient Greek and French) plus 3 times medical prize winner (adjudged by medical lecturers from prestigious London universities) failed to enter Southampton (non-interviewing) but accepted by world-class London medical school?

Fact: Non-Medicine

(1) Applicant(s) not known to shine in the 7 years of secondary school education got offers from Oxbridge over someone (in the same class) who consistently excelled.

(2) I could cite a few more examples but I think I?ve made my point.

I am very aware there are many parts to an application, e.g. academics, personal statement, school reference, etc. but the cases I cited above are in many ways similar in the sense that any which one applicant(s) could have been made an offer or a rejection even to Oxbridge. We?ve already heard earlier on this thread itself that someone was made an offer because s/he was ?gorgeous?. Say no more.

Hence my conclusion, ?pure luck?!

Snorkie, it does say 'minimum'!

I wonder if we get any better doctors at the end of this process by eliminating all the people with a Grade B A level and a couple of Bs at GCSE...

I do a lot of UCAS stuff and careers advice.

Grades are generally used as a first-past to weed out unsuitable applicants, but this is often very broad unless the course is very over-subscribed. For example a course with an offer of ABB will look at predicted grades from BBC up.

Then personal statements are considered.

A strong personal statement is a must, particularly for the most popular courses/unis. It's important to get a clued up teacher checking your DC's PS in order to get it up to scratch for tough applications.

peteneras - you know, I hesitated before writing gorgeous in my post, because I worried that someone might misinterpret what was meant as a humorous, and ironic comment. But I put it thinking that most posters would understand the joke. I'm sorry that you did not. Clearly I recommended that the candidate receive an offer based on his intellectual abilities.

WRT your list.

1.1 Despite Cambridge's reputation, the medical course is not considered the best in the country (it is certainly a more "academic" course), and it is possible that Birmingham receives many more applications per place, hence competition is greater. That may explain your Fact 1.1

1.2 Errr, ditto. Was it Barts/The London, by any chance? Was the candidate interviewed?

2.1 Well, maybe consistent excellence at school was not regarded as "enough". Lots of "consistently excellent" people get into Oxbridge. I was one. And you know? It's a big pool. And all those fish who were excellent in their little ponds suddenly find themselves pretty damn average amongst all the other fish. The candidate also maybe put in a really poor show in interview. It happens. Not much the interviewer can do if the candidate shows no sign of being able to cope with the supervision system. And the one you thought was not so good at school, well, maybe they really, really shone in the interview. Showed the interviewer a spark that no-one else had seen in them before. And the interviewer thought, "Well, let's give them a chance". That's the beauty of the interview system. Did they apply to the same or different college? And for the same or different subjects? Colleges and subjects have different application rates. Get the formula right, and you may find yourself only up against a ratio of 10 applicants for 5 places... Get it wrong, so to speak, and it's 100:5. Oxbridge don't always get the absolute brightest, for this reason...

2.2 Actually, based on what you've reported, I'd say it shows almost the opposite of "pure luck". Rather, it shows that there is a combination of factors, and that interviews are a useful tool for distinguishing between otherwise identical applications.

Of course luck is involved (of lots of different kinds). And - to a certain extent - prejudice. But it is not pure luck.

peteneras
I think I know the answer to your medical examples. The one rejected from B'ham probably fell below the GCSE A bar and the selectors didn't look any further whereas the Cambridge selectors took a broader view of things like predicted A levels, the school reference and, dare I say it, the PS. DD didn't apply there and anecdotal information is that B'ham takes on a large cohort in the 1st year and gives them a hard time so that those who make it through to the third year are likely to qualify. I'd risk a wager that B'ham will be looking for a full house of As for medicine by next year. Is your friend at Imperial by any chance?

The Soton reject might have impressed at interview in London. Soton was ruled out by my DD as being too much of a mission to travel to and too prissy about arrangements for open day so I don't know much about the selection process there except that it rarely interviews.

Your examples bear out what I said further up about playing to one's strengths when choosing which to apply to. There is some luck involved but I know students who failed to get in anywhere the first time round and were successful the second time when they had worked out a better strategy.

I think the general consensus seems to be that to be as sure as possible of success an applicant has to attend to ALL aspects of the application and make sure that the information in the PS shows suitability for the course.

Austenreader has it, no doubt.

I was rejected by Southampton back in the late 80s, and got an offer of 2 Es from Oxford (same admissions round, same UCCA form).

Go figure.

I suspect that, although universities aren't allowed to know where else you've applied, I assume they can make a pretty shrewd guess based on the applicant's overall profile. So if a candidate is achieving significantly higher then most others that they make offers to, they can probably figure that the person is applying as an insurance and is unlikely to take up a place if offered.

On the contrary Penthesileia, all afternoon I had tried avoiding using this word but now that you mentioned it, I can?t help but think some universities? decisions are a joke. But first things first, I may even agree with you that the medical course at Cambridge is not necessarily the best in the country but FWIW this (latest) world university rankings for Biomedicine say otherwise. So, when I said Birmingham (79) rejected an applicant but Cambridge (2) snapped him up, I can?t think of anything else but a joke.

And yes, austenreader, the applicant was interviewed by Birmingham which is not even a UKCAT or BMAT university and therefore, he had the required number of GCSE A*s if not more. It would be a bigger joke had he been rejected without interview.

Insofar as I know, all medical schools in the UK interview applicants (if they are invited) except for Edinburgh (17) and Southampton (192) which only interview overseas/mature students and other non-school leavers.

It is a given that every medical school in the country is ridiculously oversubscribed; e.g. Southampton this year ? 4800 applications for 246 places, i.e. almost 20:1. And since this is a non-interviewing university, the academics and all other aspects of an application play a vital part. So, when I said Southampton (192) rejected someone with a phenomenal application but a world-class London university with an even more stringent entrance process and interview requirement (not Barts/The London, Queen Mary nor St. George?s), I was only being polite to say it?s down to ?pure luck?.

PollyMorfic: I think you hit the nail on the head with your Southampton experience. It is very misleading of the university to claim they look for ?suitable? candidates for a particular course just to reject the (imho) very best ones who apply to them. Especially for a course like medicine which one can apply to a maximum of 4 choices, a misled wasted promise is something one can ill afford.

"And all those fish who were excellent in their little ponds suddenly find themselves pretty damn average amongst all the other fish."

I am not talking about some little wannabe fish in a little pond who takes a pot shot in the dark at Oxbridge. If anything, I?m talking about a School which traditionally sends 80 or 90 pupils to Oxbridge. i.e. almost 1 in every 3 and almost all the rest to a Russell Group university. The medicine examples I referred to in my earlier post are of pupils who are a well tried and tested group with a track record second to none in the world. A bold claim I know, but I?m talking about a special group of students in probably the world?s most famous school!

Penthesileia - slightly off topic, but how do you consider candidates who are unlikely to do themselves justice at an interview? My DS has Asperger syndrome and severe anxiety disorder. He certainly does not have an impressive list of extra curricular activities and I am reassured that this should not count against him in his PS, as long as he can show passion for his subject. However, even if he manages to do this on paper, his is unlikely to be able to convey this at interview.

DS says that the thought of having to attend an interview - and the pressure of having to obtain high conditional grades - puts him off applying to Oxbridge.

On phone, so will be brief. peteneras They will have had their reasons for rejecting him, particularly if they interviewed and he had a stellar CV. Poor interview, perhaps? Regrettable, I agree, that their decision was not transparent. That Cambridge offered isn't necessarily as meaningful as you think. I repeat: believe it or not, Oxbridge is not always the hardest or most competitive to get into. Were Birmingham heavily oversubscribed that year? I'm sorry you feel it is a joke. I can assure you that the amount of time and effort my colleagues and I put into it is far from amusing.

pannetone - typing on phone boringly slow so will come back tomorrow, but, in nuce, your son should go for it! :)

peteneras I apologise for not realising your example candidate had been interviewed at B'ham. He certainly seems to have got the better 'bargain' in the end, as did the other example who got into....Imperial?

As pollyMorfic said, the interviewers can probably make some deductions about whether or not the candidate would accept an offer if made. The BMAT exam is a clue that the candidate's first choice is one of a small group of other medical schools. Your example candidate's academic record would make it likely that he would receive an offer from his first choice. Indeed, a good performance at interview would only confirm their view that he would be unlikely to end up at B'ham.

Thanks for the ranking list, peteneros.
DD chose well and I'm tickled to death!

Okay just one thing, there is no exact science about interviewing/sifting candidates, this is established fact in relation to job interviews. Why anyone would think it is any different for University applications I don't know. Also anyone can under perform on a given day (I certainly have in job interviews). So no-one who wasn't there on the day can tell who came across as the better candidate.

Now everyone has A's at A'level it is much harder to distinguish the really good candidates. (I knew someone who got into medicine with ABB, and we thought the entry criteria were discriminating against good candidates then.)

I think Mummytime has it right - it's NOT an exact science, and there's certainly no magic formula whereby if you do this, get these grades, and put the institutions in this order, you'll definitely be offered a place. This is bound to get more and more the case as places are reduced, and candidates getting the top grades increase.

peterneras, I don't think that list you posted actually refers exclusively to medical training when it says biomedicine & life sciences. It lists several universities where you cannot study medicine, although you can study related topics e.g. public health.

Two candidates for med. schools from same school:

1. Excellent exam results, extensive work experience (parent well placed for this), good UKCAT and BMAT, school officer position. School expectation very high. Much guidance given.
2. Excellent exam results, very little work experience, good UKCAT, reasonable BMAT. Not a prefect. No encouragement from school. No guidance.

Both applied to Oxford and had one other choice in common. Candidate 2 applied to two med schools requiring BMAT. (Oxford not first choice.)

Outcome?

1. Interviewed at Oxford unsuccessfully. One offer from respectable Russell Group uni. Rejected without interview by two others including the common choice uni.
2. Not interviewed at Oxford. Three offers after interview from RG unis including first choice BMAT school.

Personal statement? Interview skills? Personality? Sheer luck? Determination?

Take your pick but feedback indicates that Candidate 2's personal statement was the crucial factor. And of course the courage/foolhardiness to apply to 2 BMAT schools.

peterenas,I think your 'some little wannabe' remark is rather ghastly.

Plenty of 'some little wannabes' are just as entitled to apply to Oxbridge, as are those from Eton (I'll name the school, even if you won't).

I am afraid it is rather hard luck if some of the boys from Eton are beaten to their places by others who may be equally as intelligent, if not, dare I say, it more so.

BTW about 40ish of the pupils at my DCs' grammar school have been successful at Oxbridge entrance over the past couple of years. No doubt some of those pupils have taken away some of the places that Eton had earmarked for their pupils.

I am not talking about some little wannabe fish in a little pond !

Surely everyone is allowed to have asp-irations no matter where they go to school?

I understand that you're trying to say that you're not talking about no hopers with poor grades and no motivation, but I agree with mottledcat that the choice of words here is a little harsh

And we all have our own stories of randomness for this years admissions round: none of the girls in my daughters year who applied to Oxford for medicine got an interview but all of the girls who applied to Cambridge got a place! And at the boys school it was the exact opposite - great success at Oxford medicine but real disappointment for Cambridge applicants.

And the same for other subjects - I can't understand how a successful Oxford langauges applicant can be rejected by Leeds and Warwick??? but they are all lookign for different things...

But I appreciate all the time penthesileia has taken in going through the ins and outs of the process for us here as I've found it incredibly helpful (but not settling my nerves in still waiting for DD to here back from her other chosen unis!)