Admissions tutors, is this true?

[scaryteacher]

Read this in the DT www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8320761/Are-you-ready-for-the-latest-university-challenge.html

Is it true, or is what a friend with a lad in his first year at Uni said correct - it's the grades that count, not the personal statement? The admissions tutors where he is said they don't read the personal statements, but make offers purely on the grades achieve at GCSE and those predicted at A level.

My lad is in Year 10, and we have all this to go through in a couple of years - I'm beginning to wonder if I wouldn't be better to get him to apply in Europe rather than go through all the English system palava. Based on the article, he wouldn't get in as we live abroad, Saturday jobs are hard to find if you not fluent in Dutch and French; he's doing DofE, and helps out with cubs. He will board for sixth form in UK, and do A levels, but Maastricht might be a better bet and closer than the UK.

Yes, I agree.Thank goodness for admission tutors such as Penths.

No-one is automatically entitled to a highly competitive university place.

Unfortunately some people feel that if they have paid for a world class education then they are automatically entitled, regardless of the fact that there are many equally brilliant pupils from other schools competing for those places, from both the state and private sector.

It is also worth remembering that I would imagine approx 95% of the population are not in a position to even apply to Eton in the first place (for all the obvious reasons, blah, blah, blah but there may also be some who choose not to....) so it is ridiculous to say that they are all the cleverest/most brilliant pupils in the world. They aren't. And fortunately Oxbridge admission/medical admission/other highly competitive course tutors seem to know that these days.

Having said that, there are still plenty of old Etonions at all the top places so they are hardly being discriminated against. They are just having to compete a little bit harder against 'the wannabes' for that hard earned place.

Thanks Penths for the advice. We are due to start the A level conversation in a few weeks (yes, he's Year 10 and it's early, but he applies for sixth form in May for the 2012 entry and we need to get all the shit in one sock prior to that) and I need to be able to show him what he has to do to get to Uni.

I have the RG guidance and the Trinity list, so hopefully he can pick A levels from that as he doesn't know what he wants to do and needs to keep his options wide open.

mottlecat and thekidsmom: If you want to quote me please don?t quote me out of context by selecting your choice words and leave out the important bits. Just in case you have failed to see what I wrote, here it is again:

I am not talking about some little wannabe fish in a little pond who takes a pot shot in the dark at Oxbridge.

And I wrote that specifically in reply to what penthesileia had said:

"And all those fish who were excellent in their little ponds suddenly find themselves pretty damn average amongst all the other fish."

So you see the derogatory words are not mine but those of an (supposedly) admission tutor's.

Let me be the first to say no one has the divine right to an automatic university place, Oxbridge or otherwise. Again, many of you have the misconception that all Etonians are automatically super rich and privileged. As it turned out, the example of the pupil I cited who failed to go to even Southampton medical school happened to be a poor scholar who comes from a little flat in a London council estate. So I?m quite comfortable to assume that many of you here, if not all of you, are much more privileged than him. He, from a ?little pond? in spite of his disadvantaged background fought hard all the way to a full Eton scholarship. And I hasten to say there are plenty like him at Eton today!

For even a university like Southampton to reject him ? someone with a stellar full house 12 A*s GCSE/IGCSE; 4 solid AS subjects averaging >97% USM marks with 2 subjects at 100% (university only needs 3 subjects) and I leave it to you to predict what his four A2 subjects are this summer ? is nothing but a national scandal!

Well, thank you admission tutor(s) Southampton for promoting social mobility and Floreat Etona!

Actually Southampton does interview; I know the person in charge of admissions for the medical school.

And in fact I recall him telling me a while ago that they had turned down a boy from a top public school. The school had phoned him up and tore him off a strip. He said that the boy in question, although clearly of stellar academic pedigree, had been so arrogant that no one could possibly imagine working with him.

He was telling me this because we were discussing that possibly state school pupils take rejection better than public/private school pupils. Whether they are more realistic or more humble, who is to say.

I am sure most of the applicants to medical schools and Oxbridge have 12 As at GCSE and all As predicted at A2. Certainly most of the DCs at my DCs grammar school, and my friends DCs who are privately educated, and who are applying/have applied to these courses, have the top scores in every exam they have taken.

Many pupils in this spectrum also have the >97% USM marks and off the top of my head I know several of my DCs contemporaries who have scored 100%, it is not that unusual.

Hence the admissions tutors having such a job to allocate the places.

The fact that your example comes from a London council estate makes no difference to me.

I am sure there are other children who didn't go to Eton who have top qualifications too, who may not have been successful in their applications to Oxbridge/Medical school.

And I am also well aware that Eton offers scholarships and everyone isn't rich n posh these days........

I am not in medicine, but I was talking to an medicine admissions tutor last week about an exceptionally arrogant student, and the real concerns they had about him going into the profession. It's not just about grades, and lots of people have the grades. Many interviews aim to weigh up the empathic and interpersonal skills of the candidate. As Penthesileia has so brilliantly explained, none of this is an exact science, but I don't know anyone involved in admissions who does not take extremely seriously the responsibility to make it as fair as possible. In the case of medicine, where it's not just a matter of them getting onto a degree course, but into a vital and intimate profession, that is obviously a complex business.

It?s easy to shoot out figures off the top of your head and say students at GS all get 2 dozen A GCSE?s and what not but I prefer to live in the real world with solid facts and figures. Perhaps you should visit this Medicine Stalking Page and get it from the horse?s mouth, the medical students themselves and listen to what they themselves have to say in the real world about the number of GCSE As they get..

For a start, look at Birmingham for instance - the only university where they all declare their GCSE?s. Let?s not further complicate the issue by talking about AS and A2?s.

There is clearly a perception that some medical schools are better than others. I'm guilty too of a little mental dance of glee from time to time when DD mentions casually the names of highly eminent tutors that even I have heard of - Lord this and Sir that. That's just motherly pride. It hurts me to the core that she can't afford to go out as often as the many Etonians on her course and that they sneer at her for being there on a student loan.

But do you really ask or care whether or not your GP went to Cambridge or Southampton? Do you check whether or not your surgeon passed the BMAT exam X years earlier? Do you ask whether your obstetrican went to a state school?

There was an article in the Daily Express last year. The usual scaremongering. It featured a girl who " was among 1,407 students who applied to study medicine at Oxford University. Although she made it on to the shortlist of 425 candidates, she failed to gain one of the 151 places. She failed to even make the shortlist at Leeds while Imperial rejected her after an interview last month.
She said: ?I am devastated that I?m being denied the opportunity to enter higher education, even though it is something the Government says it is encouraging.? "
(My bold)
I infer from this that although she was impressive academically she didn't convince the selectors that she was right for medicine.

Each and every place in a medical school is competed for by many more highly qualified young people than there could ever be places for. The course structures and teaching methods vary widely so different qualities are sought in the selection process. Clearly the admissions tutors work hard to ensure that the selection process is as fair and accurate as possible. Many just aren't going to get a place and the admissions tutors are, I think, above all asking themselves 'is this candidate going to make a good doctor?'.

They have done brilliantly well wherever they study. The final qualification is validated by the same body. A doctor is a doctor.

DD got one offer last year of AAA, another of AAB and..... one of AB! (Only Cambridge made A* offers last year.)

The AB offer came through by e-mail before she had left the campus.

Don't tell me she's a wannabe!

Why are you so cross about it Peterenas??

The problem is that there are too many pupils with the same qualifications applying for the same courses.

I'm not sure what the TSR Stalking Thread proves.

It might be that some unis make very high offers and expect the actual results to prune the numbers for them. It might also be that other unis weigh up the likelihood of their chosen candidates actually getting the offer grades and so make a carefully balanced number of achievable offers to the students they consider to have desirable attributes.

It's only representative of those who post on TSR and a list of high offers isn't necessarily indicative of the quality of the students at that institution since all med. school applicants know they need to be of that calibre.

She's upset because she's his Mum.

That's exactly what I thought :)

Presumably the TSR thread is full of disgruntled pupils too.

There must be some students with 12 A* GCSEs who have better things to do don't post on that forum.

there are some very similar (only pre-interview) posts from Peteneras on \link{http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/further_education/1090729-Parent-of-oxbridge-candidate-peersupportneeded/AllOnOnePage#22525225\this thread} - talk of the most brilliant guys & King's Scholars.

It got a bit heated then too

I'm afraid Penteras, that you do come across as sounding as though you think that your DS is entitled to a place at a top medical school, purely by dint of the fact that he went to Eton, and has achieved good grades.

Whilst it's fantastic that he had the chance to go to such a great school, and has achieved his potential, no-one is entitled to anything I'm afraid, particularly when there are so many people with top grades applying for popular courses. Just as no-one is entitled to a particular job, or any of the chances in life.

It's a shame, but you need to regroup, make another plan and move on.

Somehow the impression seems to have crept in that 12 As at GCSE is an absolute requirement. I'm sorry if I'm responsible for misleading anyone on that and possibly scaring you witless! I mentioned up-thread the probability that Birmingham would be selecting only those with a full set of As by next year for competive courses. I think so, but Birmingham chooses to select that way while other universities choose differently.

My point all along has been that the PS is an important aspect of the selection process, that a prospective student should apply in such a way as to capitalise on his/her particular strengths and that the system the OP started the discussion about is, in my view, really quite a good one because there is more than one criterion at work in the process.

No mottledcat, I?m not cross honestly, certainly not with you; why should I? Didn?t I report the boy in question indeed has an offer to go to a world-class London medical school?

And no, carmenetonense, I?m not his mum. But I rather like your forum name especially when it relates to a School that puts its money where its mouth is in saying it is committed to promoting social mobility.

Bramshott, the strange thing is that I entirely agree with you when you said nobody is automatically entitled to university places if you'd cared to read all my postings above. Even on this very post alone, you'll find that you've spoken out of turn and there is no need to regroup. Most of my postings on Mumsnet here and elsewhere are about correcting sterotypes. But your advice is sound and I thank you for that.

TSR definitely isn't indicative of real students. =P
fwiw, my brother got more than 12*s and doesn't post there.

In Ireland there's no PS or anything, and whether you get in is purely based on the points from your Leaving certificate subjects. I find it really interesting to think whether that's more or less fair?

I do think that there are candidates with such a passion for their subject(as shown by the PS) that they would deserve a place over someone with better grades, but perhaps weaker in terms of PS content.

To get back the original post. I do think that the article is scaremongering in the extreme! My DS is in Y13 and going through all this along with the other 149 in his year! I don't recognise any of the parenting/tutoring stuff mentioned in the article around my son's friends. They are at a mixed grammar - 24 have oxbridge places many don't because they chose not to go for the tutorial system, most have 4/5 offers, none of the parents I've spoken to have done anything other than pay the UCAS fee and ask, rather plaintively, if they might be able to read the form through before pressing send!!
OP have the courage of your convictions and let your DC follow their dream! Don't read these articles!
For those that keep saying you need 12 A*s etc etc blah, blah blah IT JUST ISN'T TRUE!!!!!! For a start, the DC in my son's school are only allowed to take 10...
Of course the personal statement needs to be well written and subject specific/academic just in case it is needed by the admissions tutors. Work experience and extra curricular stuff needs to be linked into the subject to be studied. If everybody is doing D of E bronze then of course its value is diminished - it's obvious isn't it?? None of this I knew but luckily I trusted my son's school advice which happened to be spot on!!

Completely agree that 12A*s is not a necessity. I have doubts about the reliability of selecting candidates on the basis of GCSEs, which were chosen in Y9, for a 5 year course which will finish almost 10 years after those GCSE option forms were filled in but I do see the merits of the Irish system OesMorDreng describes where the Leaving Cert results are paramount.

So I'm not extolling the virtues of a good PS over good exam results. I want my doctor, lawyer, aircraft designer, meteorologist, computer programmer etc. etc. to be absolutely brilliant!

However, the PS might make a difference to the prospects of very deserving candidates who perhaps didn't particularly shine at GCSE and might be future Nobel Prize winners. I hang my head in shame when I think of my O-level results but I have some letters after my name now. Kids change!

A good PS is definitely a plus plus austenreader. Problem is, in this day and age of the BMAT, UKCAT, ELAT, LNAT and a host of other entrance exams to top universities, and yes, not forgetting the humble GCSE's, even the most brilliant PS may not get read if it falls in the first hurdle of the extrance exam.

Yes, I agree with Optimisticmumma too. My older DCs/DNs are/were all at Russell Group/Oxbridge and neither my sister or I oversaw their applications.

The Oxbridge one wasn't asked about anything on his Personal Statement at his interview for English. He was just chatted to about all kinds of things, and he answered honestly and had not had any 'practice' interviews or special tutoring beforehand. He was just 'himself' and obviously his passion and potential for the subject came out at the time. He also must have scored highly in their own entrance tests and he had to discuss an unseen text where he must have said all the right things!! Hence the offer of the place.The competition for this place for only 8 students, with students applying worldwide must have been intense. But he was brave and went for it and wasn't going to be put off by more seemingly well connected competitors :)

(He is the only one out of our DCs who gained all A*s at GCSE/A2 though, but the others didn't apply to Oxbridge....)

None of them did a lot of extra curricular stuff, compared to some pupils, to 'pad' out their PSs.

It does seem to be now that the academic results so far/potential seems to be the most important criteria which, personally, I agree with. I have one DC left to go through the admissions process and I am encouraging him to aim as high as possible with his GCSEs to start with, just to be on the safe side. With the much older DCs there was certainly not so much emphasis on the GCSEs as their is now, with the feeling then that it was only the A level results that 'counted'.

*there, obvs.