Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

[Squeezingwildoranges]

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

That's the whole fucking premise of this thread.

It really isn't. Why not consider the alternative perspective I posited about Northern Ireland. I did it to try to make the actual question less emotive.

It wasn't a post for op or a question to answer but the only takeaway one can make from proposed premise made by op

My apologies. I thought you were trying to join the debate.

Okay, so if the British government somehow sent all Catholics in Northern Ireland to Sudan or whatever then unless some mysterious percentage of the population protested then every single man woman and child in Britain, including the ones who did protest and the ones who couldn't protest, would be culpable.

Or are the British like the Palestinians in this case, where they aren't culpable if you reckon they felt a bit bad about it later?

Honestly I'm losing track of which entire demographic you are holding responsible for which imagined atrocity. Can't we just simplify it to Israeli = bad?

First off, thank you for actually reading my Northern Ireland comparison instead of just spewing vitriol at me. I appreciate that.

I'm going to try another perspective to see where this goes. Imagine if the Palestinians in Gaza lived in a democratic society where they could protest against what Hamas decides to do (they can't). Imagine if Hamas openly declared they were going to break into Israel and commit horrendous atrocities before Oct 7 (they didn't). If a significant number of the Palestinian population did not actively protest against the planned attack, I would hold them as morally culpable in a crime against humanity. I would class any Palestinian who did not attempt to stop or express opposition in some way to what was obviously going to be a crime against humanity as culpable. I'm really not sure that helps but I hope so.

Hamas have made their intention towards Israel very clear over the decades, and there was plenty of support for Palestinians for October 7th. Or are you suddenly going to back up your assertion that those who celebrated felt bad about it later?

And you didn't say all Israelis who didn't express opposition awould be culpable, you said all Israelis would be culpable. But good to know that in your hypothetical situation you would blame Palestinian children and those unable to protest responsible for 7/10. I mean it's not good to knownit's disgusting but you get what I mean.

The original 1988 Hamas charter was a public document. Everyone that voted for Hamas knew what they were voting for but Hamas still won.

Food for thought regarding how culpable they are according to the premise.

Though personally I would suggest that those that were not born yet or children at the time shouldn't be included in the culpability that op wishes to place upon them with this premise. Something I have not noticed op has suggested should happen with Israelis, though granted I may have missed that post

“Ben (the son of) Zoma said: Who is wise? He who learns from all people, as it is said: ‘From all those who taught me I gained understanding’ (Psalms 119:99)

@Neverstopwondering, "Though personally I would suggest that those that were not born yet or children at the time shouldn't be included in the culpability that op wishes to place upon them with this premise. Something I have not noticed op has suggested should happen with Israelis, though granted I may have missed that post". The whole point of the thread is plan "Disengagement 710". Gvir would have been a child himself in 1988.

Oh boy

I'm really sorry and I mean this with sincere respect but I don't know what point you're trying to make.

This is such a historically illiterate comment 🙄

I speak as an Irish Catholic with a parent from the North (Fermanagh)

Why would Israelis want to stop it?

Maybe that's something you should be considering OP?

There are two nations here, not just the Palestinians.

Israelis have lived with Palestinian terrorism for 60 years. Knowing just a few miles away there are many people whose whole life is dedicated to trying to kill them and destroy their country.

The atrocities committed by Palestinians on Israelis, even before Oct 7th, including plane hijackings, the slaughter of their Olympic team, suicide bombings, shooting rampages, rapes and murders of women and girls, horrific murders of whole families in their homes, kidnapping and murders of teenagers, stabbing rampages, car rammings, all happening long before Oct 7th.

Now the OP, even after the worst attack on Israel in it's history, expects the average Israeli to have sympathy for Palestinians, many who have supported this 'resistance' and indoctrinated their children into it, from generation to generation.

Israelis know the Palestinians were given autonomy and a free election in Gaza and 90% voted in favour of one of two groups with a long history of terrorist attacks on Israel, with Hamas then killing members of the other terrorist group, Fatah, to take control.

Israelis know that Jewish residents of Gaza were dragged from their homes and the bones of their dead were dug up to make Gaza completely Jew free. They know what Palestinians destroyed immediately afterwards including a ready made economy.

They know Hamas and the other terrorist factions in Gaza immediately launched rockets at Israel and continued rocket and terrorist attacks up until their 'piece de resistance' Oct 7th with mass atrocities almost unparalleled in their barbarity in a very short space of time.

They saw Palestinians celebrating, praising god, cheering and spitting on the bodies of murdered Israelis.

They saw Palestinian families, with children, celebrating and dancing at the coffins of a baby and toddler slaughtered and mutilated after being kidnapped by Palestinians.

They know not a single Palestinian offered intelligence on where the hostages were despite some of them being held in the homes of civilians, and a reward of $5 million per hostage and safe passage out of Gaza being offered.

They know Palestinian terrorists have always actively chosen civilian targets.

Who are you to judge Israelis, who live with rocket sirens, bomb shelters in every home, and public place including children's playgrounds, who see reports of Palestinian terrorist attacks almost every day, who dealt with the aftermath of Oct 7th?

To add as an aside to that, the effect on their economy, defence expenditure, the manpower put into preventing Palestinian terrorist attacks, the army constantly on alert and soldiers lives lost.

Your question from an Israeli perspective should be, 'should any Israeli who WANTS to stop it be held culpable for not only future Israeli deaths, but Palestinian too'

Right? Irish civil rights was a big cause, particularly on the left in Britain during the Troubles. The idea that noone would have batted an eyelid is utterly, utterly, ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that the US would have had something to say about it. So many opinions, so little knowledge.

Apologies. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was describing a hypothetical scenario. Not a historical fact.

You're right which is why I was amazed when the person who I posed the hypothetical question to said no one would have batted an eyelid.

I don't want to get into an argument about which side has killed more civilians or committed worse atrocities; those figures and histories are well known and incontestable. We can always make a separate thread to debate them if you like. What I want to address here is the philosophical argument.

In fact I appreciate this detailed perspective and it highlights exactly why this is such a profound ethical dilemma. You are describing the psychological and historical reasons why a population might arrive at a point of passive acceptance due to decades of conflict and trauma. I believe it is Gideon Levi who has said many times that the mainstream Israeli mindset is built on a fantasy where they hope to wake up one morning and find that the Palestinians have just disappeared. My original question isn't about whether individual Israelis feel sympathy. It is a question about democratic responsibility in the face of a crime against humanity in the form of ethnic cleansing. There is a distinct difference between understanding the motive for silence and evaluating the consequences of that silence. In a democracy, the state acts on behalf of its citizens. If a government executes an illegal plan of total ethnic cleansing which is an internationally defined crime against humanity, the passive majority effectively provides the consent the government needs to carry it out. Hence my original question.

I think this is an important point.

The” passive majority“ know their country is under threat from all sides -Iranian funded Hamas, Hezbollah etc
I can understand why their attention is on their own survival. I don’t agree with Netanyahu’s actions and many Israelis don’t agree either… but they face so many external threats that I can understand why they don’t have the bandwidth to protest on behalf of the Palestinians.

It's not protesting on behalf of the Palestinians that matters per say. It is protesting their democratically elected government engaging in an internationally recognized crime against humanity.

They are engaged in an existential threat to their existence from Iranian funded terrorist groups . That might make it difficult to organise protests against their government ( however much they might disagree with their government)

They did just have quite large anti-government protests a few weeks ago. Iran was still an existential threat.

So what exactly is your issue?

Sorry, I was just answering your response.