US-Iran peace agreement discussion, part 4

[RedTagAlan]

Thread 4 for those following and commenting on the above subject.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

I am not drawing a conclusion strictly based on religious text. Thankfully, Israel is a democracy and is not ruled by a radical rabbi.

AI is just a quick way of finding the explicit evidence to back up what I have been hearing from Iran since the embassy siege, which is within my living memory. That js all I have used AI for, I haven’t asked them to make judgments best made by humans.

The issue with Iran is that its ‘supreme’ leader and pretty much anyone with any say in how the country is run takes their religion very seriously indeed, and a particularly poisonous doctrine within the religion.

Actually the biggest funder of Hamas was Israel in order to split Palestinian solidarity. If you don't know that I can show you the proof.

But we’re talking about the country Israel would nuke if they wanted to nuke anyone which is the country currently funding various proxies like Hamas & Hezbollah.

I better make it crystal clear since you seem to be struggling to identify the country Israel is at war with. The country I’m referring to is Iran.

What the hell is the justification for the state of Israel other than religion. You cannot seriously condemn Iran for its religious stance when it is literally the state of Israels primary battle cry to defend its existence. As far as a democracy is concerned, that is the biggest bullshit I've ever heard. How can a country call itself a democracy when half the population of the country aren't even considered as human with no self determination or basic human rights.

So you want Israel to nuke Iran? Okay. I think a lot of the Netanyahu cabinet would be with you. Lets face it. The only way we really know Israel has nukes is because they keep threatening to use them.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

‘What the hell is the justification for the state of Israel other than religion. You cannot seriously condemn Iran for its religious stance when it is literally the state of Israels primary battle cry to defend its existence.’

Now you have decided to go full antisemite. Why should Israel be the only state required to defend her existence? It is considered antisemitic to criticise Israel’s right to merely exist.

The Shoah is not that long ago. I lost relatives within my grandparents’ generation in it. And neither Hitler not Israel cared whether you were religious. It was based on ethnicity which you will probably say isn’t real either. But, as an Ashkenazi Jew with a genetic predisposition to certain illnesses, let me assure you that a geneticist considers it an ethnicity.

So Israel is not based on religion, although there may be some overlap. It was based on finding a home for dispossessed Jews after WW2, many of them secular. And it sure as hell doesn’t need to defend its existence any more than any other man made state (which is basically all of them).

I am not a fan of religion or Israel’s current government or actions. In fact I think it is time to boycott it over them to pressurise them into a fair 2 state solution. What is happening there now is a tragedy. But questioning Israel’s existence is another matter entirely.

You clearly don’t think Israel has a right to exist. You are an antisemite (just look at the official definition). I am not going to report you because, as I said earlier, I believe in free speech.

In an address at West Jerusalem’s Gush Katif Museum, Israel’s Chief Rabbi David Yosef denied Palestinians exist as a people and said they ‘have no rights’. He also claimed Gaza and occupied West Bank cities for Jews, and called for Gaza’s destruction and Jewish settlement.
https://www.aljazeera.com/video/newsfeed/2026/8/22/08-22-26-israel-rabbi-palestinians-clip

Israel’s Chief Rabbi says Palestinians are not a people and have no rights
Israel’s Chief Rabbi denied Palestinians are a people, claimed Gaza for Jews and called for its destruction and return.
https://www.aljazeera.com/video/newsfeed/2026/8/22/08-22-26-israel-rabbi-

Nice.

I am absolutely disgusted that you think I'm an antisemite. My argument is that Israels existence as a country which dispossesses people of their homes and lands is based purely on a religious mandate that most of the world don't share. Your family history sounds absolutely horrendous and I get that. My question is, why should the Palestinians pay the price for what Europe and Eurasia did to your family. I have seen you agree that the settlements are wrong and I'm going to make a guess that you would like to see an honest peace in Israel. I really think you misunderstood my first statement in my post. I've read it back and the word justification was probably badly chosen. I just find it hard to accept that the land is ours because it says so in our religious text is a legitimate argument.This is going to send us down a rabbit hole where I'm going to argue that a lot of modern Palestinians are decedents of Jews, etc,etc.

Quote " If a conclusion must be drawn based strictly on the explicit text and its theological mechanics, text-based religious analysis indicates that Israel is more likely to use a nuclear weapon first.".

And the reply to that was basically " Well that is wrong because Isreal have supposedly had them for ages and not used them"

I am not following the logic of that reply.

If there is a one in ten chance of country A using them, and a two in ten chance of country B using them, then those are the probabilities. These probabilities are not negated because country B has not used them.

I plucked those probabilities from the sky just to be clear. The same sky where this supposed God in charge of all this resides. It is the same God after all. Of all 3 religions involved. This God that never changes. But has somehow changed anyway. From OT to the NT then Islam.

And people are still fighting over it.

Where did I say I want Israel to nuke Iran?

I didn’t. Stop putting words into my mouth. I don’t even agree with nuclear weapon let alone want a country to use them.

I have great sympathy for Iranians living under that awful repressive regime so would hardly want the see them suffering a nuclear attack!

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

‘I am absolutely disgusted that you think I'm an antisemite. My argument is that Israels existence as a country which dispossesses people of their homes and lands is based purely on a religious mandate that most of the world don't share.’

You are conflating how Israel is behaving, which I agree is disgracefully at the moment, with Israel’s right to exist. For the avoidance of confusion, below is an example of antisemitism according to the official IHRA definition:

1. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

This is precisely what you are doing. Now, very few people question the United States right to existence or claim it came from a racist/religious mandate, although the Mayflower settlers certainly claimed religion and race as their right to the land. Ditto Australia and the Aborigines and Peru and the Incas. Every single one dispossessed a native population at some point in history. So why is Israel so special aside from the fact it is Jews?! The statement about Israel’s right to exist is prima facie antisemitism and, if you don’t think you aren’t happy to be called out as an antisemite, I suggest you reconsider it.

Where I agree with you and deeply sympathise is that the Palestinians got a raw deal out of it. But it was a messy compromise after a genocide which saw over 1/3 of the World’s Jews genocided in an industrial process. There was previous thought of an area between Kenya and Tanzania. Despite reference to a book earlier in this thread, experts do generally believe Jews were driven out of the Middle East in biblical times, so to some extent it was repossessing their homeland. I won’t argue that too strongly as the nation states are always forged in wars and justice doesn’t really come into it.

Again, for the avoidance of doubt, I favour Israel returning to her pre 1967 borders and a proper two state solution. I also favour a full boycott of Israel to stop settler violence and the potential settlement of Gaza and to pressurise Israel to stop racist and expansionist behaviour.

But Israel is not Iran and has a vote soon. Until recently it was far more secular than most realise. I hope they vote for a decent tolerant government. However, I also hope that they remain a Jewish state. Given the rise in antisemitism, we Jews (even secular ones like me) may well need one.

I appreciate that @TopPocketFind. Thanks for making that comment.

I think that's because Bessant and Trump are just posturing and making cheap threats to impress their domestic audience. They seem to be losing their grip in general.

US targets Egyptian bank’s UAE branches under new push for Iran’s economic isolation

The Trump administration is taking steps to limit an Egyptian bank’s operations in the United Arab Emirates, accusing the financial institution of serving as an economic lifeline to Tehran’s leadership as the U.S. war against Iran reaches the six-month mark.

Under a new rule proposed Friday by the Treasury Department, the Emirati branches of Banque Misr, Egypt’s second-largest bank, would be severed from access to the U.S. financial system.

The rule will be subject to a 30-day public comment period before it takes effect, the Treasury Department said.

Egypt’s foreign ministry and central bank confirmed knowledge of the new rulemaking and are communicating with U.S. officials, according to a statement issued by the Central Bank of Egypt on Friday.

“The CBE affirms that this measure is limited to the bank’s branches in the UAE and only to its dollar transfers,” the statement said.

Also Friday, the U.S. Treasury Department posted on its Office of Foreign Assets Control website new sanctions on the bank manager of the Dubai branch of Iran’s Bank Melli and a Hong Kong-based firm that the U.S. accuses of helping launder funds for Iran.

apnews.com/article/iran-war-economic-isolation-sanctions-trump-bessent-ae1c438ff169effa0c63a56a93ca23ae

Yes, the nuclear weapons thing has suddenly become the alleged US chief goal because their regime change mission flopped. As I've said several times in this section, repeatedly attacking a country makes it more likely to want to develop a nuclear weapons/other very destructive weapons, not less likely. That's common sense.
If they US had not broken the MOU and had been effective in addressing the other points, I think Iran would certainly have negotiated on the nuclear weapons point though.
I do think it is very possible that Trump could send in ground troops but probably not this year.

A wonderful violinist. I met him once when I was very young. I need to look up that recording as a I have not heard it. There is a wonderful old recording on YT of the Bach Double played by YM and David Oistrakh which you, as a fellow music lover, might enjoy!

@Twiglets1 ,

I would honestly be surprised if these financial sanctions made a lot of difference.Surely, it is the blockade that’s really hurting Iran.

Prior to the war 80% of Iranian exports were hydrocarbon based products; without oil it would be a dirt poor country. And of that 80%, 90% went to China.

So, if Iran could get oil out, China would continue to buy it, and I think Iran would happily accept CNY for it, which the U.S can do little about.

If is extraordinary that Trump has spent so much on a kinetic war if financial pressure would have sufficed.

@rainingsnoring ,

https://west-eastern-divan.org/divan-orchestra

This is a great initiative for peace. I am amazed it is still going.

Preventing Iran from being able to develop nuclear weapons was always a main goal to the US & Israel and was a big part of the Memorandum of Understanding.

It was never just about regime change. Although it was hoped that the war might create the right conditions for an internal uprising against the regime strong enough to overthrow them. It still might - time will tell.

It's the correct diagnosis, not just for BN but for several within the US administration and several within the Israeli administration too.

You are just plain wrong Twigs.
The regime change plan came right out of Trump's mouth on the first or second day. It's strange that you are choosing to ignore selective parts of what he says and take others 100% seriously.

Well yes I do agree that it’s the blockade that will be hurting Iran the most.

Still, the new economic sanctions are another method of inflicting financial stress on the regime. Iran’s economy was already suffering before so a little more pressure could be impactful.

Yes! I believe Barenboim is the director, another wonderful musician (and an Israeli Jew, of course), as was his poor late wife.

Although despotic regimes do seem to create loyalty, mainly through propaganda and the creation of the idea of external enemies (some real and some imaginary), there is clearly still, in Iran, plenty of people who detest the theocracy, especially women.

But people can’t rise up unless they either have the army on their side or they have access to weapons and military support.

Encouraging people to rise up and then abandoning them to be gunned down by a loyal, well organised and well armed police force is absolute treachery. Although Iran are disgusting for killing their own people in such numbers, Trump et al should also be blamed for encouraging regime change and then risking nothing to support it.