US-Iran peace agreement discussion, part 4

[RedTagAlan]

Thread 4 for those following and commenting on the above subject.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

I am not remotely qualified to enter a theological discussion but here are a couple of links that suggest Iran’s hatred of Israel is far more based on theology than their hatred of Israel:

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/irans-war-against-israel-the-shia-eschatological-vision-messianic-conflict/

‘Yes, the ruling government in Iran opposes Israel partly because of its religious ideology, though it also mixes these beliefs with political goals. src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/x34GvyQedy8?start=67" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> 1, 2]
Religious and Ideological Roots

• Khomeini's Teachings: After the 1979 revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini shaped Iran's government using strict religious and political ideas. Research from Reichman University shows the regime views Israel as an enemy of true Islam. 1, 2]
• Sacred Lands: Hardline clerics teach that a Jewish state on land considered sacred to Muslims is wrong. 1]
• End-Times Beliefs: Some extreme factions in Iran hold apocalyptic views. They believe that fighting Israel helps clear the path for the return of the Mahdi, a messianic figure in Shia Islam. 1]

Political and Strategic Motives

• Fighting the West: Iran calls the United States the "Great Satan" and Israel the "Little Satan". They view Israel as an agent of Western power in the Middle East. src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/x34GvyQedy8?start=67" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> 1]’

‘Israel has never threatened their use?? Name me one other country that has nuclear weapons and made a declaration such as the Samson option’

Umm, The Samson option is identical to MAD during the Cold War, so every single NATO and Warsaw Pact country.

‘I have no doubt in my mind that if the US pulls out of this war, Katz will implement Operation Blue and White and although not publicly expressed yet, it involves the use of nuclear weapons.’

What??!! Where on earth is that from? Israel have not threatened that and there is no way it will happen because the U.S pull out of the war with Iran.

• more based on theology than how Israel has treated the Palestinians

Quote " End-Times Beliefs: Some extreme factions in Iran hold apocalyptic views. They believe that fighting Israel helps clear the path for the return of the Mahdi, a messianic figure in Shia Islam. "

I see in that "Some extreme factions ". Do you have numbers on that ? Anyway, looking up this character, he is not mentioned in the Quran.

Yes I know Iran has it in for Isreal. But I am not seeing where it is to do with their religion.

The article you referenced , the Reichman University article says this as the top reason :

" The sea change in Iran's attitude towards Israel is based on the readings of Khomeini that continues to guide the Iranian leadership, all of which were Khomeini's students and followers. Khomeini's ideological hate of Zionism and Jews, well-documented in Prof. Meir Litvak's research, was a major pillar of his religious worldview and his conceptualization of Islam and its historical and religious destiny, in face of its crisis in the era of modernity."

Ideological, not a theocratic thing.

That mans it is taught and propagandized in, it is not a core belief needed for them to do their religion. And that matters. Because it means not every Shia has to be killed.

But there is a religion that has the Israel as a requirement for their messiah to come back. And any Jewish people who do not convert will have a nasty end. Yup, the US evangelicals, Trumps base, they need the 2nd temple to be rebuilt. You know, for Armageddon to happen. It's a proper death cult so it is.

Bingo! All 3 Abrahamic religions have messianic end time factions including Judaism. So much content about the Battle of Gog and Magog, and who will control who, what will happen to thise who don't convert etc.

[Google AI]

Biblical Prophecies and Persia

• Ancient Ties: The Hebrew Bible features Persia (modern Iran) in stories like Purim and books like Daniel and Esther. 1, 2]
• Elam Prophecy: Some Messianic teachers look at Jeremiah 49, which discusses Elam (an ancient region in Iran), as a prophecy that applies to modern political events and divine judgment. 1]
• End-Times Views: Certain groups link current tensions between Israel and Iran to prophecies about the final days or the rebuilding of the temple. 1, 2]

@BelleHathor et al,

I don’t doubt that all religions have extremists. The difference is that the extremist proponents are not running countries, except in a few and, luckily none of those to date have possessed weapons of mass destruction.

That is what makes Iran uniquely dangerous.

There are elements of the Israeli government who are quite religious extremist, I am not denying that, but Netanyahu isn’t, fortunately.

Secular Lifestyle: Netanyahu was raised in a largely secular Zionist household and was educated in Western institutions, including the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). 1]
Political Survival: Observers note that his primary driver is political self-preservation and a secular, security-focused worldview rather than strict religious dogmatism. 1, 2]
Calculated Strategy: His approach to geopolitics relies on a deep, secular mistrust of human nature and a belief in raw power rather than theological imperatives. 1, 2]

If Ben G’vir or Smotrich became prime minister, I would feel the same way about Israel as I do about Iran.

Quote " That is what makes Iran uniquely dangerous."

No. It is what makes the USA dangerous.

You presented an AI ( I assume sorry) case that Iran hating Israel was based on theology, but the evidence you presented says otherwise.

This article, that YOU posted for your case ;

Why the Islamic Regime in Tehran calls for the Destruction of Israel? | Reichman University (runi.ac.il)

To quote it's 2nd top reason, in addition to the first I posted above

"At the ideological-religious level, Khomeini linked Jews and Zioinism with the processes of secularization and westernization in the 20th Century Middle East. He believed that the decline of the Islamic world – as it followers pursued material desires – is the result of broad-ranging plot of foreign powers, served by Zionism as its spearhead in the region. In Khomeini's thinking, once the West realized that it would not be capable of defeating Islam by military force, it sought to undermine it from within by advancing secular and material ideologies and ideas."

That is ideological, not theocratic. And there is a difference as I said above.

@RedTagAlan ,

I think that you are splitting hairs between theology and ideology, especially when one informs the other. Khameini’s right to rule is said to be divine. They didn’t even pretend the people had a voice in it.

And his first statement was all about ‘martyr’s blood’.

The Iranian regime have even accused Jews of being sorcerers.

The idea that maybe we should let them get nukes to deter Israel in a logical and measured way is crazy.

You are right. I'm not trying to argue whether or not, legally, morally or practically, Iran has a right to a bomb. What I'm trying to say is that the whole bomb thing is nothing but a red herring. Netanyahu has been screaming for the last thirty years that Iran is weeks away from developing a bomb. He has tried with one president after another to get them to attack Iran and all of them refused. He finally found one who is either stupid enough or dirty enough to be coerced into doing it, without congressional approval by the way. The thought they could decapitate the Iranians in a few days and either install a puppet government or turn the country into another Libya. Israel would be happy with either. The US now desperately want to get out of this situation but have no clue how without totally losing face. Trump doesn't give a damn about the world economy as long as he can come out of this looking like he actually won something instead of looking like a whipped dog with his tail between his legs. Personally I think he should accept defeat, aplogise for attacking them, pull out of the gulf and release Iran's frozen assets as well as lifting all sanctions. Iran can then be left to its own devices to get rid of the Ayatollahs and the IRGC if they want. Either by bloody revolution or a gradual shift to secularism. Whatever they do it is their business and Israel needs to have its expansionary plans reigned in by the international community. Of course this will never happen and so he is just going make this shit show even worse. The Iranians are suffering, the rest of the world are suffering having to now choose whether to accept the bully boy threats with these secondary sanctions and risk some kind of retaliation from Iran and a freeze on their energy supplies or ignore the sanctions and try to secure their own interests.

Another thing we can agree to disagree on @Newbutoldfather and nothing wrong with that.

In your opinion he’s not antisemitic. But different people have different opinions on what constitutes antisemitism and different levels of tolerance for it.

Like if you think something’s racist and someone else says that’s not racist… their opinion won’t change your opinion.

The second biggest Jewish community in the middle east are protected by fatwa and are represented in the Iranian parliament with a permanent seat. After the 1979 revolution, Khomeini issued a formal decree drawing a strict legal and theological distinction between the religion of Judaism and the political ideology of Zionism. They do not see Jews as sorcerers!

“Iran can adopt a similar position” - except they can’t because the US won’t allow it.

The Khazar hypothesis, why am I not surprised?

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

Apparently 9,000 Jews live in Iran, which I must admit I did not know about. It must be an interesting community. However there are over 1mio Arabs with full voting rights in Israel, and that doesn’t mean Israel doesn’t have racist laws or practices.

This is Khameini from 2020 during Covid:

‘Iran’s Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei delivered a major annual speech on March 22 in which he emphasized that “Americans are being accused of creating this virus” and even claimed “there are enemies who are genies, and there are enemies who are humans, and they help one another. The intelligence services of many countries cooperate with one another against us.”

The Supreme Leader did not explicitly identify Jews or Israel in this regard, but his own office soon clarified this point. Khamenei’s official website elaborated on his speech by posting remarks from a cleric who explained “there is no doubt that the Jews and especially the Zionists previously have a long history of supernatural affairs and matters such as a relationship with the devil and genies,” and “Israel's spy agencies also undoubtedly take advantage of these matters.”’

The cyberwarfare division of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) posted Khamenei’s speech followed by an undated television clip from Iran’s state-run, youth-oriented Channel Three. The clip featured another cleric asserting that “the Jews are experts in sorcery and in creating relationships with demons,” and that “Israel wanted to use demonic force to infiltrate the intelligence systems of Iran, Hizbullah, and Hamas.” ‘

Did this not happen?

Again we can split hairs over who exactly said what, but this is not a normal kind of speech from the leader of a nation, or one you would ever want to be able to deliver a nuclear warhead.

(Again, I am not an Arab speaker, so I have to take translations on trust but I can find references to this on several reliable sources).

You presented a case for what you think, you made a conclusion, but the evidence you presented does not prove what you say. So now you move the goal posts to get into the semantics of "theology" and "ideology".

Hands up, I know very little of what the Quaran says. I tried reading it but gave up. A Muslim friend sent me a set of books on how to convert, but no good. Just not my thing. And I was religious at that time.

Thing is, if there was a line in their book that says "All Jews must die", we would know about it. Tommy Ten names etc would mention it non stop.

No, what we have is Khomeini has an ideology that the West will water down Islam, and to him the threat was secularism. . And it is just the exact same as the people in the west who come out with "The great replacement". Opposite people of course, but it's the same. If Iran had a Reform Party, that would be their mantra. "Replacing Islam with secularism"

And if it was theological, how on earth did Trump manage to get Islamic nations to sign his Abraham accords ? They are also mostly theocratic countries with Sharia based law systems.

Ideology in the individual can be changed. For example, Communist China. How many Chinese people in the west have you heard say capitalism must be destroyed ? Must be loads right, because that is what they were taught in schools till very recently.

Do you think that all 1.4 billion people in the PRC want to destroy Western style capitalism as you appear to think 90 million Iranians want to see Israel destroyed ? Or whatever the number is.

@RedTagAlan ,

Although a member of my family has become quite a Muslim zealot (despite being half Jewish) and can read Arabic fluently, I can’t. I also have no claim to deep theological knowledge.

But aren’t all the Abraham accord countries Sunni Muslim bs Iran who are Shia and with a very fundamentalist interpretation?

I will leave this debate to people more expert than me, of whom there are many on this thread.

But what we can (hopefully) all agree on is that Iran is fairly brutal dictatorship based on religion, even if its leaders misinterpret it. And, for that reason, they shouldn’t get nuclear weapons.

‘Do you think that all 1.4 billion people in the PRC want to destroy Western style capitalism as you appear to think 90 million Iranians want to see Israel destroyed ? Or whatever the number is.’

Why would I think that?!

Most people just want to live their life and have a chance to achieve their ambitions.

But, in autocratic states, the people don’t get to choose, and are brutally put down when they try to.

Um, that link is directly from Google AI.

Jewish Israeli Shlomo Sand has also written about the Khazar Hypothesis in his 2010 book "The Invention of the Jewish People"

https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/products/2103-the-invention-of-the-jewish-people

Best-selling analysis of Jewish history by a leading Israeli historian with a new preface
A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews descend from converts, whose native lands were scattered across the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

In this iconoclastic work, which spent nineteen weeks on the Israeli bestseller list and won the coveted Aujourd’hui Award in France, Sand provides the intellectual foundations for a new vision of Israel’s future.

Quote " ‘Iran’s Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei delivered a major annual speech on March 22 in which he emphasized that “Americans are being accused of creating this virus” and even claimed “there are enemies who are genies, and there are enemies who are humans, and they help one another. The intelligence services of many countries cooperate with one another against us.”"

On a side note of sorts, and taking the supernatural out, that is pretty much what the PRC said.

Full text: Covid-19 Prevention, Control and Origins Tracing: China's Actions and Stance - Global Times

"4. Evidence Pointing to the US as the Origin of Covid-19"

And later on, in the conclusion, it says :"...disclose information about Fort Detrick, "

It's a total gish gash of an argument they make, but they are adamant it did not originate in China. They strongly suggest the US.

Yes, of course it is total rubbish what Khamenei says, and it is total rubbish what the PRC said. It did originate in the PRC.

So bomb the PRC too is it ? Because of what they said about covid ?

I'm a bit busy but I am going to quickly answer this. One of the big problems with the Arab and Iranian community is that even though they do distinguish between Zionists and Jews, they use the same word for both, Yehudi. It makes it confusing but when they use the word Yehudi, in 99% of the cases, they are referring to Zionists. Interestingly though, it is the Zionists who desperately conflate their political ideology with Judaism.

"Yehudi." makes me thing of Yehudi Menuhin. And his 1962 recording of the Beethoven Violon concerto. To me, one of the best recordings of music in history.

But that is me.

Sorry for the tangent.

OK, 'fess up. Which one of us is really Rafa?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/aug/26/donald-trump-friends-diplomatic-iran-war-us-president

Maybe not Alice in Wonderland. In the Telegraph today:

“On today’s episode of Iran: The Latest, Sophia Yan is joined by Middle East scholar Vali Nasr to assess the state of the conflict as it hits the six-month mark. They discuss why Washington’s security umbrella in the Gulf is collapsing, how US naval exhaustion is forcing warships to retreat to Asia, and why China stands to emerge as the ultimate winner of the war.
Plus, why Israel and Turkey could be heading toward a new frontline in Syria”

Excerpt From
“‘We’re going to see a reckoning’ of the global order: Middle East scholar’s verdict”
Sophia Yan
The Telegraph
https://apple.news/A2yKNBPu-SlyJfJeE3fPL8g
This material may be protected by copyright.

Has Israel attacked Turkey yet @JadeHare ?

You seem to have left the thread you started about that.