Should the international community sanction Israel over settler violence in West Bank?

[FloralDeerPattern]

The problem of Israeli terrorism is getting worse and worse. Just over the past few weeks amongst other things Israeli terrorists have killed multiple people, commited sexual assault, beaten and threatened to rape young Palestinian girls, continually attacked the residents and property of the only remaining fully Christian town in the West Bank, stolen 100s of sheep from the Bedouin community, beaten activists who are there to provide a protective presence to Palestinians, set fire to property.

Palestinians don't have the right to defend themselves from this violent, rapidly escalating Israeli terrorism. They can't arrest and detain the Israeli terrorists. They are sitting ducks with no means of protecting themselves from beatings and sexual violence. Is it time that the international community steps in and sanctions Israel until they can control their obvious terrorism problem? What else can be done to try and protect innocent people from this escalating Israeli violence?

It certainly did me, as did the pro Palestine marches after 7/10 and before Israel had even responded.

I see this stated often but from what I can gather Israel responded by bombing Gaza on Oct 7 at 7:45am UK time. The first protests were on Oct 9 outside the Israeli Embassy in London, at the time Israel had already killed almost 100 children with that number rising rapidly.

What marches are you referring to that happened before 7:45am on Oct 7 in the UK? Or are you using another measure of 'before Israel even responded' than I am ie I am using when Israel started bombing Gaza as when they responded, what measure are you using?

Unfortunately it does seem to have changed the rhetoric for the worse. And I say this as someone who wanted the government to sanction the settlements (not the whole of Israel) as I have discussed before with @Newbutoldfather

Take the post higher up this page: UK senior rabbis approve the government action. The howls of anti semitism are exposed.

People are using the government's actions to push their own agendas. In this case that sanctioning the settlements makes a lie of people calling out antisemitism in the UK " the howls of anti semitism are exposed".

The implication that all UK senior rabbis approve the government actions isn't even true, let alone that this exposes antisemitism allegations as untrue.

I haven't seen any evidence that Jews have experienced more racism than Indigenous people, black people, Asian people, particularly Muslims

All these groups have experience a lot of racism, so I'm not really understanding your argument here.

What are we comparing? How many generations you need to go back before you find genocide? The number of books that have been written describing a particular race as inferior?

I assumed that you were talking about worldwide criticism of Jews, rather than specifically scapegoating in the UK. Indigenous people are certainly relevant worldwide. Of course it is not a competition. I haven't suggested that, merely that I dislike all racism and hypocrisy too. I agree that totally with what you are saying about both antisemitic and Islamophobic both being used incorrectly to try to silence people. This is something that I have objected to on here. It's extremely unhelpful as it shuts down much needed discussion about the issues that society faces nowadays.
I did give one specific example of Islamophobia in the post above. 'Meanwhile the poster who started the thread about the UK government 'siding with the Islamists', clearly an Islamophobic slur has not been criticised.'

I was responding to the other poster.

UK senior rabbis approve the government action. The howls of anti semitism are exposed.

But who is listening and has their opinion actually changed?

I understand your concern about the phrasing of 'thowls of anti semitism are exposed', but what are the UK and other governments supposed to do? The rest of the world hasn't sat back when Trump has made threatening noises about Greenland and Canada, and it's not even as though many people think those threats will come to anything.

I accept that people are more able to separate Americans from their President, but how much should that affect foreign policy? I don't think many people posting on this thread are supporters of Netanyahu - should other countries accept that he and his government will just do whatever they want?

Your point is not more clear.

Just to add to this the first thing Israel did that turned my stomach in this conflict was on the morning of Oct 9 when Gallant announced that he was going to starve everyone in Gaza. “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

That evening there was an emergency protest organised by PSC. I think if more people would have taken these early genocidal statements seriously instead of calling starving a whole population of the necessities for life 'self defence' we wouldn't be where we are now.

Yes.

When I worked in a large multicultural team, I was disappointed at the time by Muslim colleagues (lack of) response to the Islamic terrorist bombing at Manchester Arena in 2017. It didn't make me suspicious of their identity in the UK though. I expected we would all talk about it as we talked about other big events in the news, but there was a silence that felt awkward.

I think their reasons for not wanting to talk about it (among an ethnically mixed group of colleagues) were probably complex.

No one pushed them to talk about it, by the way. Some people just drew conclusions from the fact they chose not to, and said they won't comment because the suicide bomber & his brother who assisted him were Muslim. That was their assumption, not necessarily true of course.

After I left the organisation and reflected back, I thought maybe Muslim colleagues just didn't feel comfortable discussing it with non Muslims. And in any case, it isn't their role in life to have to take a position on every crime committed by Muslims across the globe.

I understand your concern about the phrasing of 'the howls of anti semitism are exposed', but what are the UK and other governments supposed to do?

Again - I am in favour of the UK and other governments sanctioning the settlements. It's just a shame that people have used this as an excuse to unleash more antisemitic rhetoric like the line above.

I don't think the (very limited) sanctions will achieve anything on the ground, sadly. Yet I was still in favour of the UK government taking a moral stand. However, comments like the one above make me question whether it was the right thing after all. If it makes antisemitic people feel more justified in their antisemitism, it may have been the wrong decision after all. Very complex!

@FloralDeerPattern ,

‘Just to add to this the first thing Israel did that turned my stomach in this conflict was on the morning of Oct 9 when Gallant announced that he was going to starve everyone in Gaza. “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”’

To be honest, I sympathised with Gallant at that point.

Not that what he said wasn’t horrific but, given the horrors of 7/10, anyone would have overreacted. The whole west massively overreacted after 9/11. You cannot attack, rape and kill thousands of innocent civilians and drag back ‘hostages’ with you and not expect an overreaction.

Israel is a very small country and I suspect that virtually every citizen probably knew of someone who knew one of the dead or captured.

It was precisely what Hamas wanted and expected. So, it was very stupid of Israel , and I think they would have done far better with cooler heads. Understandable, though? Absolutely.

I don’t think Israel did have genocidal intent at that point. Biden was in the White House and wouldn’t have accepted it. That threat was made in the context of getting the hostages back. I suspect that Israel wanted to destroy Hamas and get back to some kind of equilibrium again.

I think a few (the usual suspects G’vir, Smotrich, Katz) sensed an opportunity when Trump was in the White House and seemed to be happy to accept some prime beachside property in return for ceding Gaza to Israel.

@Newbutoldfather, "I don’t think Israel did have genocidal intent at that point."

Not sure I agree with that. I believe the decision to clear out Gaza was taken very early on, if not immediately, as a war goal. The proposal for a temporary tented city in the Sinai for Palestinian civilians first emerged officially on October 13, 2023, just six days after the October 7 attacks. Everyone knew there would be nothing temporary about it.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/

But from this article Israel was not short of citizens who could spot some rather large holes in that plan, even before you consider whether it showed intention of genocide.

Ah OK we see the situation very differently then.

Can you not understand though that not everybody would be sympathetic to such horrific rhetoric aimed at millions of innocent people coming from government ministers, who have the power to follow through and make those words into actions and want to protest against it outside the relevant embassy without it being cause for disappointment and suspicion?

Israel have raped, killed and attacked 100s of 1000s of innocent people and there hasn't been any over reactions there? If anything there has been a massive under reaction so I personally don't accept your premise that it is completely understandable. If the people of the West Bank can sit and watch their families in Gaza be slaughtered and starved without going genocidal then I'm sure that Israeli ministers could have managed the same.

@FloralDeerPattern ,

I am sure we don’t see things identically!

‘Can you not understand though that not everybody would be sympathetic to such horrific rhetoric aimed at millions of innocent people coming from government ministers, who have the power to follow through and make those words into actions and want to protest against it outside the relevant embassy without it being cause for disappointment and suspicion? ‘

Of course I can see that, and they have a right to protest. But protests were being planned literally during the 07/10 attacks:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hours-after-hamas-invaded-on-oct-7-uk-anti-israel-group-began-planning-mass-protest/

That is pretty awful to me.

’ I don’t know what you Israel have raped, killed and attacked 100s of 1000s of innocent people and there hasn't been any over reactions there?’

Umm what under reaction? Once you have a war, it becomes about capability more than intent. Hamas’s charter stated:

The 1988 Charter

• Explicit Antisemitism: Stated that the Hamas Covenant 1988 struggle against Jews was "very great and very serious".
• Conspiratorial Claims: Cited the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion to claim Jewish control over world events and media.
• Religious Rhetoric: Used apocalyptic religious language calling for the killing of Jews hiding behind trees and stones.
• Collective Blame: Held Jewish people collectively responsible for global conflicts like the World Wars.

They slightly revised it in 2017 to refer to Israelis rather than Jews and to take out the reference to the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’, but most view that as tactical rather than stopping being anti semitic.

There is no doubt that were Hamas to somehow control an area where any Jews lived, there would be no Jews left alive, as we saw on 7/10.

None of that excuses what Israel are doing, and I am all for boycotting them until they accept the inevitability of a two state solution. However the idea that only Israel had genocidal intent is laughable.

I felt chilled by the violent rhetoric used by certain Israeli leaders on 7/10/23.

Because I knew the Palestinians would have to pay a terrible price for what Hamas did. I think most world leaders would have reacted violently too if their innocent citizens were attacked/murdered/kidnapped and subject to sexual violence.

My empathy was mainly for Israel that day who suffered the assault. But I knew the retribution would be horrendous too. It was such a stupid thing for Hamas to do and the end result is more hatred & mistrust on both sides which is hardly conducive to a 2 state solution any time soon.

@Twiglets1 ,

‘It was such a stupid thing for Hamas to do…’

I don’t think it was stupid at all, I think it was actually quite smart. It was genuinely evil though.

Hamas had their tunnels well prepared with food and water, and were also ready to sacrifice themselves. Yahya Sinwar was a bright guy and taught himself Hebrew to ‘better understand my enemy’.

I think that they calculated that if they were battered hard enough, the western world would intervene on their side. It might have happened had the most transactional president of all time not been elected.

You may be right, if we take the view that they don't actually care about the Palestinian people at all. Which of course, the evidence does support.

Of course I can see that, and they have a right to protest. But protests were being planned literally during the 07/10 attacks

And while Israel were bombing Gaza? Not before Israel retaliated, as Israel were killing innocent people too. They were planning a future ceasefire march when they saw an escalation in conflict.

There have been plenty of protests full of Israeli flags literally during Israels assault on Gaza, literally as Israels bombs killed children, literally as Israel starved children, literally as Israel rape people etc etc.

I presume you are also suspicious and disappointed in the people that have taken part any pro Israel march since Oct 7 since that involved protesting(rather than organising a future protest) as Israel were literally killing innocent people?

If the people planning a ceasefire march at the very beginning of an escalation in a long running conflict are so terrible what does that mean for the people marching in support of Israel at a time when they are actively killing people and engaging in ethnic cleansing? These certainly aren't ceasefire marches.

@FloralDeerPattern ,

‘And while Israel were bombing Gaza? Not before Israel retaliated, as Israel were killing innocent people too. They were planning a future ceasefire march when they saw an escalation in conflict. ‘

No, Israel were not bombing Gaza, if you read the article. The application went into the MET on the 7/10 itself to hold a march on the 14th.

And the 7/10 wasn’t an ‘escalation in conflict’, it was a cowardly attack on unarmed civilians with no military objective whatsoever. it was just a slaughter of the innocent by thugs; the words human animals is very aposite for those who personally took part in 7/10.

‘I presume you are also suspicious and disappointed in the people that have taken part any pro Israel march since Oct 7 since that involved protesting(rather than organising a future protest) as Israel were literally killing innocent people?’

Not in the direct aftermath of 7/10. It was right to show solidarity with Israel after it, just as it was to show solidarity with the U.S after 9/11.

More recently, I would condemn pro Israel marches and the waving of Israeli flags.

Israel started bombing Gaza at 7:45am UK time on Oct 7. Are you telling me that the application went in before 8 o'clock in the morning on 7/10? I know for a fact that it didn't it wasn't until lunch time so yes it was while Israel were bombing Gaza.

So it's fine to 'show solidarity' while 1000s of children are being killed. While people collect their children's body parts in plastic bags. While children are being starved. But it's 'suspicious' to start organising a ceasefire protest for the next week at the escalation of a conflict while people are being slaughtered and bombs are being dropped?

At what point did it stop becoming a 'show of solidarity' and start to become suspicious and disappointing? Not when the Israeli Defence Minister announced he was going to start starving every man, woman and child and began bombing bakeries, that was understandable. Was it when hospitals were being leveled and premature babies left to die? Whole apartment blocks full of sleeping children reduced to craters? When foreign aid workers were killed? When rescue workers were lined up and shot and buried in a shallow grave? When a little girl begged for her life alone in a car with her dead relatives only to be shot at 100s of times? Where was the line when it stopped becoming solidarity and became something else?

@FloralDeerPattern ,

You are ducking what you believe about 7/10. Do you wholeheartedly condemn it and all who participated? Do you believe it was some kind of military escalation?

‘At what point did it stop becoming a 'show of solidarity' and start to become suspicious and disappointing? Not when the Israeli Defence Minister announced he was going to start starving every man, woman and child and began bombing bakeries, that was understandable. Was it when hospitals were being leveled and premature babies left to die? Whole apartment blocks full of sleeping children reduced to craters? When foreign aid workers were killed? When rescue workers were lined up and shot and buried in a shallow grave? When a little girl begged for her life alone in a car with her dead relatives only to be shot at 100s of times? Where was the line when it stopped becoming solidarity and became something else?’

I think that is a fair question which I was also asking myself.

I think when it became clear that the war objectives went beyond the return of the hostages and the destruction of Hamas, which are totally acceptable military goals. Once Hamas was severely degraded and Israel was denying food and medicine to enter Gaza (not initially, but later).

It is hard (maybe impossible) to put a moment on it. I think governments had the same issues. For Israel to try to destroy Hamas and get the hostages back was right and proper. Their use of 2,000 pound bombs and the ‘scorpion protocol’, their treatment of POWs and their seeming permanent occupation of captured territories and what looks very much like ethnic cleansing is clearly not right and no one should be waving Israeli flags now.

Are you Israeli?

Have you read any reports from real military experts (rather than armchair ones) into the way Israel conducted this war?

Maybe you should.

@OpenScroller ,

I speak to one person IRL who is similar to you. They literally see one side of the story and accept it without any reservations.

I’m kind of guessing these real experts are Richard Kemp and John Spencer? There don’t seem to be too many of them, and others challenge them.

The problem of debating someone like you is you see any experts such as the UN, Medecin sans frontieres etc etc as biased and antisemitic (Jew haters I imagine is what you call them) and you will desperately seek any straw you can to discredit them.

And you will wilfully ignore the likes of Smotrich and Ben G’vir and their open advocacy of ethnic cleansing. You probably think they are ‘bad apples’ despite the fact they are full ministers of state.

If I am wrong about any of the above, please let me know which ones? And then we could have an honest basis for discussion.