Overtired baby/ Cruel mummy??? (long and probably quite rambling!)

[percy]

Wanted to run something by you, as I have developed a new theory on my ds2's (4 weeks old) unsettled behaviour. He cries alot and I thought he seemed in pain - arching his back, writing and flailing arms and legs. Also seems to bob on and off the breast alot during some feeds. Thought it may be reflux but gaviscon has not helped. He is really thriving and putting on loads of weight. Am starting to question whether there is any digestive problem at all - maybe i have just been misreading his behaviour.

I was wondering whether he is just simply overtired and very good at fighting sleep - ds1 was exactly the same. I haven't been able to instigate a routine yet, although he does seems to feed roughly every 3 hours and tends to do a longer stretch at night. So, I haven't been putting him down to sleep or rocking him at any particular times and thus not getting him to sleep before he hits overtired?????

Today he had hardly slept at all by 4pm - and so realising he must be really really tired I put him in his cot and sat next to him with my hand on his chest, and also used a dummy. He cried for about 5 -10 of the 20 ish minutes it took for him to fall asleep. Tonight he cried for much longer and it took probably over an hour for him to finally fall asleep.

Basically wanted some feedback - do you think babies can cry for long periods purely from overtiredness? and secondly am I being cruel by letting him cry it out?????

You never know with little babies do you?

But does he get whingy at around the same time of day? If so it could be colic, in which case changing your diet may help (cutting out dairy worked for me), or it may not and there may be nothing you can do.

Also with my dd I suspected that she may be eating too much, and then interpreting the discomfort as hunger.

So don't know. You're not cruel though - if he hadn't slept then he did need sleep. Suggest you try Gina Ford's 2 hour rule (putting them down for a nap after they've been up 2 hours whether they seem tired or not) - or even with the rest of her ideas if they appeal to you.

Hope you find something though.

Percy if you're cruel then so am I! Last night we tried everything - 4 hours of wakeful arching etc, asking to be fed and then fighting it, falling asleep on the breast then waking up and screaming, having her back rubbed .... In desperation I went to bed with her and carried on trying then yet gain she cried I didn't know what to do and just lay beside her - max 15 second of crying and she shut her eyes tightly and was fast asleep! We do what we can, we have to get to now them and they have to get to know us.

No useful advice but I sympathise, it's frustrating isn't it, then forgotten when they're sweet again

why not try cranial osteopathy? My friends baby was very similar to yours and it worked wonders for him. You would probably only need a couple of sessions.

Buckets full of sympathy! DS(8 weeks) is exactly like this (plus bucket loads of sick from him!) We had gaviscon for dd (silent reflux sufferer) but it did nothing and also for ds (reflux with full vomiting at every opportunity) and he is definatly better with the gaviscon but it seemed to take a while for it to kick in. He is still sick but not quite so much struggling and writhing, screaming etc. It maybe worth sticking with it for a bit longer if you've not been using it very long.

I agree that definatly babies cry out of tiredness. Does your ds have a long(ish) sleep when he finally gives in? We did a similar sort of thing with dd at about 4 months (we were absolutly desperate as she never slept and was crying almost constantly) after a few days where we did stick to the GF 2 hour rule she would go into her cot quite happily and even now people are amazed that I just put her sleeping bag on and put her in her cot and she settles herself down.

I am always coming up with new theories for ds. But I think that a lack of routine doesnt help. So far have aonly really manage to get him bathed a the same time everyday, its very difficult to introduce a routine when their feeding is all over the place and they cry etc a lot.

So, to conclude I have no idea and am the last person who should be trying to help as I havent sussed it yet ( and I was so sure it was going to be easier this time!!!!) But I dont think you are being cruel you obviously care for ds very much or you wouldnt be worrying so much wether you're doing the right thing.

When I think back I used to put my babies in the pram and rock them to sleep when they got to that overtired time. I had a Silver Cross pram that I used to run over a flat slipper on the floor which made the pram 'shoogle' as if going over cracks in the pavement. Didn't have time to go out walking with 3 kids under 5 Didn't find that they cried too long before conking out with the motion.

A bit like Mears's suggestion really - we had one of those battery powered nursery swings, and it only used to take a few minutes of the steady motion combined with the hum of the motor to send ds to sleep, even when he'd been quite fractious beforehand.

Percy, sounds like my ds who is sleep fighter of the year. When he was really small I would despair of his unwillingness to sleep. After reading all sorts I decided I would try to get him to sleep every 2/3 hours so as not to get to the evening when he would be completely freaking due to overstimulation. It didn't help that dd who had just turned 2 used to shout WAKE UP whenever she saw his asleep. Rocking/pushing his buggy either in or out of the house worked for us as he hated the swing chair we had. Now he's 8 mths I sing to him which surprisingly works as my singing is known to empty rooms.

Similar to Mears and GillW's suggestions, we bought a cloth hammock for our DS and used that for the first few weeks (8?). It was great as DS used to sleep for first 3 hours at night, then feed then want to play for next 3 hours... DH used to take him downstairs, put him in the hammock and swing him to sleep while he lay on the sofa with the tv on. Poor DS couldn't stay awake. Neither could DH! They used to come back to bed a few hours later with all of us having had some sleep. It cut down on the crying time and DS has been a good sleeper from the early days.

It is called the 'Koala hammock' and DH named it as our best baby purchase the other day when we talking about 'best buys' for a local NCT magazine.

I should say add that we bought it for DS as a moses basket alternative but then got so scared by the cot death avoidance advice (must be on a flat mattress) that he ended up in his cot on day 3 - he was a big baby!

percy, I also had a sleep fighter but didn't realise it till he was around 3 months old. Next time I will be much more strict with the 2 hour rule. I think you should concentrate on getting him back to sleep within 2 hours of waking but not worry too much about how you do it at this stage - I think small babies often find it hard to get themselves to sleep. I used to walk a lot in the buggy or put him in a sling - could still take at least 20 mins though (he was the only baby I knew who could even scream for 20 mins in the car before going to sleep, even - or especially- when dog tired!!)
Eventually I did let ds cry it out in his cot (couldn't pace the streets 3 times a day indefinitely!) but he was around 4 months by this stage. It was very difficult as he would sometimes cry the entire hour.....took about 2 weeks to get it cracked.

thanks so much for all these suggestions - it feels so much better just to know i am not alone. ninja - lets stick together! elliott - i know exactly what you mean - he doesn't fall asleep in the car either!

Well, this morning he settled so much quicker- put him down 2 hours after he awoke and he screamed the place down for about 3 minutes then fell asleep and has been sleeping since. I am definately going to stick to this rule, and will try to put him in the cot when convenient but try not to get too hung up on this at the moment. This hammock sounds fab - do you think they do it in adult sizes, I wouldn't mind a go.

Thanks again - feeling so much brighter and positive today (feel a bit like I'm tempting fate saying that, but what the hell)

Percy I remember an awfulpatch between 3 and 8 weeks where my dd did exactly what yours is doing. The only place she would finally fall asleep was on me, but only if i was uprightish. If I even dared to lie down she would wake up. I didn't let her cry it out, but there were a few nights of sleeping siting up until 3am, then finally getting proper sleep. You sound as if you are doing fine, but it it is a certan time of day it could be colic. Start that mantra now 'it is only a stage'!!

trying to get dd to sleep at this very moment - at the breast i'm afraid but i want my shower!

the hammock does look fab doesn't it.

Just wanted to second the suggestion for a battery operated swing. We had one of those for DS2 and I can't believe the difference it made also it leaves you handsfree to see to your other child etc. Dare I say it I followed the GF suggestion of no longer than two hours after wakening this time also and found that DS2 was always ready to sleep again before the two hours was up. I don't like to think of it as following GF, more like following sensible Mumsnet advice!

Percy, we too had a swing and it was fantastic. In fact I still have it in my living room, though dd has almost outgrown it she still loves it.

I wish I'd bought a swing. Definitely would get one if I had another child.

Another vote for the swing - it really does help persistent non-sleepers. Our ds was just the same, Percy!

Dd was like this, and I (eventually) found that if she started to show signs of tiredness it was already too late and she'd become overtired and would scream & scream & scream. My HV said small babies can't keep themselves awake. HA !

Our wind-up swing was a life/sanity saver and was the only way we managed to have an evening meal.

But as Crunchie says, it is only a phase, it just doesn't feel like it will ever end sometimes !

Good luck and I hope you find something which works for you both soon.

Twink, maybe your HV read Penelope Leach ('when your baby is tired, she will sleep' Arrrggh! How can these people be so WRONG!!

Oh, and I read the 2 hour rule in a book that wasn't GF so I don't feel it makes me a GF follower! (in fact that book specifically states that they may be ready for sleep long before 2 hours is up, and certainly not to try and keep them awake!)

Another vote for the swing - I bought a wind up one which would go for about 15 minutes. Have lent it to everyone who has had a baby since! My dd was a total pain when she was a few weeks old and I spent lots of time counting to 100 before picking her up or watching the clock on the video. A kind of controlled crying but not that drastic (this was b4 I had even heard of c-crying)She calmed down after a week or so. And slept really well until about 7 months when other problems started!

I read that babies can only be awake for 2 hours in a couple of books and that really helped me in the first few months as it gave me confidence to put her down when she looked wide awake. She was a very "good" baby anyway and usually settled fairly quickly. If she became very upset I'd get her up and try again a bit later as this was quite unusual. I'd leave her to sleep until she woke up naturally. She slept 7-7 at around 3 months and got herself into this. Her daytime routine was quite variable for longer. In the early days she did have a habit of being awake late at night - from 10ish to midnight and beyond which nearly killed me. "This won't last for ever" and "she must go to sleep sometime" were the mantras which got me through it.

ANYONE NEAR GLASGOW WANT A SWING?
I have a wind up one which you can have for nothing if you want it and are within travelling distance.

Didn't you like it Jasper ?

pupuce methinks your kiddies are now asleep and you have too much time on your hands....

well, not feeling quite so positive after a four hour crying stint this afternoon/ evening - finally settled at 8.30pm.

I can see that loads of you have been very succesful with the swing. I just worry that then bad sleep associations would be set up - when do they learn to go to sleep on their own? I am absolutely paranoid about this as had to do sleep training with ds1 at 7 months. I know that isn't a concern as young as 4 weeks - but when do you swap from the swing to allowing them to fall asleep without the movement????

I cracked down on ds at 3 months and it took about 2 days to sort out.