Overtired baby/ Cruel mummy??? (long and probably quite rambling!)

[percy]

Wanted to run something by you, as I have developed a new theory on my ds2's (4 weeks old) unsettled behaviour. He cries alot and I thought he seemed in pain - arching his back, writing and flailing arms and legs. Also seems to bob on and off the breast alot during some feeds. Thought it may be reflux but gaviscon has not helped. He is really thriving and putting on loads of weight. Am starting to question whether there is any digestive problem at all - maybe i have just been misreading his behaviour.

I was wondering whether he is just simply overtired and very good at fighting sleep - ds1 was exactly the same. I haven't been able to instigate a routine yet, although he does seems to feed roughly every 3 hours and tends to do a longer stretch at night. So, I haven't been putting him down to sleep or rocking him at any particular times and thus not getting him to sleep before he hits overtired?????

Today he had hardly slept at all by 4pm - and so realising he must be really really tired I put him in his cot and sat next to him with my hand on his chest, and also used a dummy. He cried for about 5 -10 of the 20 ish minutes it took for him to fall asleep. Tonight he cried for much longer and it took probably over an hour for him to finally fall asleep.

Basically wanted some feedback - do you think babies can cry for long periods purely from overtiredness? and secondly am I being cruel by letting him cry it out?????

I've got a swing too, would lend it to someone, I'm in SW London

percy, remember your ds is only 4 weeks so try not to worry about bad sleep associations (hard I know, I was a bit paranoid about this too!)
I tried getting ds to sleep in the cot at 3 months, but really he couldn't manage it, so I gave up and tried about a month later, when it worked. I can only suggest that time will tell when your ds can manage it - jsut try for a few days every month or so.
I did read though that it is a good idea to try to encourage 'motionless sleep' even if they need rocking to get to sleep - i.e. once they are off you stop rocking. Then later when they can manage it, you help them learn to get to sleep without the rocking. Good luck. This bit's tough isn't it?

dear percy, sorry haven't had time to read all the replies, but it sounds so like my ds was I thought I'd post. He used to fall asleep quite happily through the day at regular intervals until he got to about 6 weeks, then he started terrible evening crying, just like colic, I tried all the infacol etc, was dreading every evening, long crying bouts, arched back, loads of wind (which I realised afterwards was just because he had been screaming) Then after about a week it dawned on me that he wasn't sleeping during the day any more, just 5 minute catnaps. I read all the books for sleep advice, and they all said "follow your baby" etc, except (dare I say it) gina Ford who said that he should be tired after 2 hours. I was prepared to try anything, so the next day, once he had been up for 2 hours, I went into our room, closed curtains, and sat and cuddled him, he drifted off after about 10mins. I did that all through the day after 2 hours of being up, and that evening we had a normal baby who didn't scream. He is now 6 months, and is still the same, he WILL NOT sleep during the day unless I wind him down and put him down somewhere quiet, and I usually have to rock him off. He won't sleep at all if there are visitors in the house. He is just too interested in the world around him. After a few days though he had settled into a routine and as soon as I started to rock he settled to sleep, and he stared grisle a bit at nap time, so his body clock had obviously tuned in. At night he will go down happily on his own about 2/3 nights, but never during the day. The experience made me wonder if other "collicky" babies were sometimes tired too. (not all obviously, but some. I don't have a swing, but although the car/pram worked wonders when he was smaller, by about 7 weeks he liked going out so much that he wouldn't go to sleep in those either!

Have had a better day today - how have you got on ninja? I found today that two things make him easier to settle - firstly taking him into a dark room and secondly swaddling him - it means less of the flailing arms and legs and thus easier to calm down when in an overtired state.

elliott - you are so right - its such a tough bit. we think we will be so much better at it second time round - but i personally still find it so hard to read the signs.

The two hour thing worked for me too. Penelope Leach...grrr!

Hi Percy
It could be colic like the others are saying, but it isn't cuel to leave them crying. Did the same with my ds and he is now 3.5 and has no signs of sleep deprivation.
It is hard for you as you are probably tierd too. If you think it is colic as a massage therapist I would advise to gently use one finger in acircular motion around the colon starting on the right handside and work your way up and round the left hand side of the stomach area to help baby disperse trapped wind bubbles.
Good luck!

hi percy.

well i'm spotting the tired signs more in the day - still having to work to get her to sleep, feeding rocking etc. the 2 hour rule seems to give a good idea but how long are they likely to sleep after that? she does keep waking herself up so maybe i should try the darkened room - she doesn't like being swaddled tho.
she was sleeping better at night but last night was griping ALL night from 1am aaaah

never mind we're getting there -

sorry no caps - asleep in arms

How's it going Percy?

Well now I'm getting my little one to sleep during the day, she just sems to be permanently tired! Maybe I'm getting too adept at spotting the signs. Still having difficulty keeping her asleep.

My dd always fought sleep, Percy & Ninja. Took me 6 months to realise she was overtired, so tried doing GF timings one day. She slept the naps (no crying, amazing) then went to bed from 7pm-7am (a first). I was stunned. Think some babies just need a routine, really. Hope things are improving for you. Dinny.

I'm feeling inspired and will try GF timings on baby today as I love the idea of a routine.... I will also try and get into the habit of putting him down awake - DP is away on business so perfect opportunity.

My DS2 has been having terrible wind, waking him up when he was asleep so I took him to the cranial oestopath last thursday. He said that DS2's forehead had become terribly squashed during birth and that he was probably also suffering from shock. It has made a difference, though he still does get a bit of wind it is nothing like as bad as it was. I highly recommend it for stressed out babies.

I also got him to do me, didn't really feel like anything was happening. He said that it would help with my milk production - not sure if it has. Did have a very emotional
couple of days afterwards, no doubt getting rid of all the emotional goo.

kaz33 - I would wait a bit longer before trying routines. Remember it takes 3 weeks to get breastfeeding established, so I would be led by your baby just now.

Thanks Mears - nanny leaves in 2 weeks, so a bit petrified of looking after two and in fact doing DS1 justice as he has such a great time with our nanny.

lordy its so hard isn't it. i know what you mean ninja - i think ds2 is also permanently tired - he definately can't even last the recommended 2 hours until he has a meltdown - maybe lasts 20 minutes after a feed till he starts getting grizzly. it is so wierd - he goes from ok to overtired in a matter of minutes with very little warning.

mears - when do you think a good time to introduce a routine is? mind you, even if i wanted to i don't think i could get organised - especially not to follow the gina ford routines - they seem so complicated i really cannot get my head round them.

also (questions questions questions - sorry) do you guys wake them for a feed before you go to bed?

Even though I'm a committed Fordie I would echo ears advice re routines so early - In the first few weeks I think the most important thing to take from GF is to wake the baby at 7am and feed every 3 hours or so after that. And to put to sleep after 2 hours. Sometimes, dd would not sleep when Gf said she should , so I used to sit in the darkened nursery with her in my arms for the time Gf said (and sometimes sneak in a quick bf if she was searching for it)

Failed to read your first post properly, Percy - also agree 4 weeks is too early for routines (my dd much older - 6 months - when GF came to our rescue). Just hang in there for a bit, I suppose... If you do decide to do her routine, it's not that hard - basically a short nap & long nap per day (a 2-hour break in the middle of the day for you - BLISS!) All the best, Dinny

I agree with prufrock - if the sleep times don't always work out - ds has always appreciated a "quiet time" in his room. Darkened room, no noise - just cuddles - if he sleeps it's a bonus - if not then he's been wound down and taken away from too much stimulation elsewhere. Nice and snuggly,
I also sneaked in some "illegal" breastfeeds when starting on GF - took several weeks for a routine to click perfectly but when it did, ds is now freaky textbook baby - slept till 9am this morning - aww Fathers Day treat!

Sorry percy - I am not the person to advise about routines. My philosophy for a crying baby was to check nappy and give the breast no matter how often. I would try rocking in the pram etc. if I didn't have time to feed because of other kids etcor if I was really sure my babies had had enough. My dad used to always say 'is that you topping up again?'. At 4 weeks I fed really frequently. First ds slept all night at 9 weeks, so it worked for me A routine just evolved. Sorry I can't be of any more help.

Percy - your DS's behaviour sounds exactly like my Ds at that age, and I decided that it was feeding related. Similarly, the GP prescribed gaviscon, which didn't help.

I flailed about for a couple of weeks trying different things, and then tried changing my diet. I'd read somewhere that certain foods sometimes unsettle babies through breast milk. Apparently as far back as medieval times, midwives were routinely advocating cutting out certain foods. These are: onions, garlic, criciferous veges (broccolli, cauli, cabbage), citrus fruits and juices. (I can't recall the sources of all this, but I did research it fairly thoroughly at the time!)

It was pretty hard - I was amazed to find how many things have onion in them! It worked like a dream, though. He immediately became settled, contented and happy. It may or may not work for others, but it did the trick for me when I was at the end of my tether. If you give it a go, let me know if it works for you.

bit of a better day today - two short sleeps and a longer one between 2 and 4! much less crying through the day too. how are things with you ninja and kaz33?

forgot to say griffy - you may be right. Feel really wierd about it but have introduced a couple of bottles now and have seen an improvement over the last few days which I have attributed to the bottle. He seems so much more settled afterwards - I was thinking he may just be hugely hungry but perhaps it is more related to what i am eating??? I have mixed feelings about cutting out the foods and trying that - really confused. I actually really do not enjoy breastfeeding and only carried on so long with ds1 because I so wanted to do the right thing. In fact I feel this was probably one of the main reasons for me getting PND. This time round I feel far more selfish and want to look after myself more. Breastfeeding is hard enough without having to seriously restrict my foods aswell - d'ya know what I mean?

Have been following your posts as your babies sound very similar to mine and Percy your last post echos how I feel. I cant say I've ever really enjoyed breastfeeding but do think its the best thing. With dd I was adamant that she was never going to have a bottle or a dummy (which she didnt) but I really struggled.

With ds I have had to take the pressure off myself, I still feed him at night (better cos I have less milk now so it helps with his reflux) and the bottles have definatley made him a happier, more settled baby. Not that I'm promoting bottlefeeding just saying its working for me and ds (and dd who benefits from a happier mummy)

I still feel a failure for not completely bf and giving ds a dummy bu I guess you cant do it all, all the time.

Sorry for jumping in and going on about my situation but just wanted you to know, I know exactly how you feel.

Percy and Ames - you are both doing what feels best for your babies. There are many mothers on mumsnet who have successfully mix fed and breastfed well over a year, some longer. If it makes you feel more confident and happier, then that is what to do. You might find that if you are more relaxed, that will transfer to your baby. You will then enjoy the breastfeeds that you have instead of resenting them. I have read posts from mums who have mix fed for a while and then resumed exclusive breastfeeding. For me, exclusive breastfeeding was very rewarding and I loved it. That does not mean that I believe all women should exclusively feed, if that is not the right choice for them. Hope you manage to strike the balance and enjoy your babies. This stage passes so quickly even though sometimes you think it never will. Best wishes, mears.

Percy - yes, I know what you mean. It seemed like a complete pain to start with.

Restricting my diet wasn't that hard, though, once I'd just made mental replacements for everything. For instance, I replaced onions with leeks, citrus juice with cranberry juice, and cauli etc with peas/carrots etc. Once I stopped buying the offending items it wasn't too taxing.

I should add that these things started creeping back into my diet once he was about 12 weeks old, and they didn't have the same adverse effects, so the heavy restrictions didn't apply for too long. Hope this helps... good luck.

hi percy - it's definite4ly getting better now i notice the sleepy signs. inevitably going to sleep seems to involve somw whinging and crying which i hate, not that i;m leaving her to cry, she either asks to feed then cries and batters my breast, or just cries if i don't give it!

yesterday was a lot better tho - a sleep in the morning - over 4 hours in the day with a wake for feeding, then got her to sleep using mears's pram over a slipper trick in the evening! and a lot better sleep in the night.

for the night i've found i nee to work out the difference between asleep noises and waking ones (bothvery loud!)

it just seems amazing how long it takes to get to know these little things.

Sorry to barge in - and haven't properly read this thread so, again, I'm sorry if someone else has asked this but.....
My DS has a "sort of routine" but this involves NO sleep at all in the day lucky if I get him away for an hour
He wakes about 6 am - will not have his bottle
Has something about 8am after a bath (about 5oz) this is when I get that lucky hour and then thats it for the day - until he goes to bed at about 6.30. I wake him again at 10.30pm and then he sleeps through. He's generally a misserble toad during the day and I am sure its cos he is tired, was debating whether to pop him in his cot after each feed (about 4 hourly plus some solids in between) and leaving him to cry so he gets used to having to nap - any sugestions? Incidently, he will sleep if in the car - but wakes as soon as I stop driving.....