Overtired baby/ Cruel mummy??? (long and probably quite rambling!)

[percy]

Wanted to run something by you, as I have developed a new theory on my ds2's (4 weeks old) unsettled behaviour. He cries alot and I thought he seemed in pain - arching his back, writing and flailing arms and legs. Also seems to bob on and off the breast alot during some feeds. Thought it may be reflux but gaviscon has not helped. He is really thriving and putting on loads of weight. Am starting to question whether there is any digestive problem at all - maybe i have just been misreading his behaviour.

I was wondering whether he is just simply overtired and very good at fighting sleep - ds1 was exactly the same. I haven't been able to instigate a routine yet, although he does seems to feed roughly every 3 hours and tends to do a longer stretch at night. So, I haven't been putting him down to sleep or rocking him at any particular times and thus not getting him to sleep before he hits overtired?????

Today he had hardly slept at all by 4pm - and so realising he must be really really tired I put him in his cot and sat next to him with my hand on his chest, and also used a dummy. He cried for about 5 -10 of the 20 ish minutes it took for him to fall asleep. Tonight he cried for much longer and it took probably over an hour for him to finally fall asleep.

Basically wanted some feedback - do you think babies can cry for long periods purely from overtiredness? and secondly am I being cruel by letting him cry it out?????

thanks for your post ames and mears - i do feel so much better for introducing some bottles and i am trying so very hard not to beat myself up about it - ds is happier and so am i and thus so is the rest of the family. i could spend forever analysing the whys etc but ultimately i just know he is happier and more settled. please try not to feel guilty ames - i know it is hard but there is so much more to mothering than breastfeeding. Also there are so many variables in a child's health (ie asthma/ eczema etc). That is my little mantra anyway.

Had a pretty good night last night too ninja - settled at 8 and woke at 2 and 5.45 for feeds. Funnily enough I was dreading the nights during pregnancy, but have actually found the days harder. He does tend to settle back to sleep relatively easily at night at the mo. So reassuring to know someone is out there going through the same thing, dont you find?

Gini- sounds like your ds is a bit older as is on solids - how old is he?

8 - 2, that's fantastic percy. i had the best night yet 51/2 hours then 4, (her not me!) then we got up and she promptly fell asleep in my arms (and is still there!). mind you she had a busy day yesterday, we were out for my birthday and she gave me her first smile.

i shouldn't say this but i think it's all improving for the better. (i must have forgotten the half hour we were both in tears yesterday)

he's always been a terror but we have the nights sorted now really, he is just over 6 months.
I remember being where you guys are and so I know that I am lucky that I am finally getting a nights sleep - which is why I have suddenly noticed the pigsty we are living in!!

Happy Birthday! I know what you mean ninja about being scared to say things are on the up - i feel like i am tempting fate. but i guess there are good days and bad days always and so we should make the most and feel as smug and pleased as we can on those good days. then i feel totally justified in being a complete moaning minny on the bad days.

Gini - at 6 months I would probably start being a bit firmer about day time naps. We did controlled crying with ds1 when he was 7 months and he was definately ok with it and it was the best thing i ever did. We were all infinately happier with a day time nap or two.

How much should he sleep in the day - am I unreasonable to expect two hours in the morning (10 - 12) then an hour in the afternoon (2 - 3)??

His evening bedtime is around 6pm, so don't really want to let him have too much in the afternoon.

Do I just put him down and walk away, even if he spend the two hours crying? At the moment I leave him for 10 mins, go back in, calm him down and then leave him another 10, if he keeps it up I ten get him up (I never get him up again at his "proper" bedtime).

Hi Gini
I think a 2 hour nap and a shorter say 45 minute nap is certainly not expecting too much. With regard to timings I guess you should put him down when he starts fussing the most - take his lead.

With regard to how you do it - I read a really good book with my first son that I used called How to get a good nights sleep by Angela Henderson - it is recommended by Crysis I think and I found it fab. Very cheap and short so easy to read. Basically you put them in the cot and then check every 3 mins then 5 mins and in ever increasing increments -just soothing them with a pat but never getting them out of the cot. The book has lots of fab suggestions on how to prepare for putting them in so you feel ready etc.

well, I had to go to the dentist so knocked his routine out a bit, he has had a bottle and been moaning in his cot now for an hour - shall I give in and just get him up, or leave him for the other hour?
(he has not had a sleep at all since waking at 7amish)

Gini, my ds never slept for 2 hours at a stretch until we dropped him down to one nap at 16 months or so....when he was on two naps he woudl sleep about 1.5 in the morning and maybe a bit less in the afternoon.

how did it pan out gini?
fwiw, gina ford suggests a morning nap of 45 mins and a lunchtime nap of 2 hours for a child of 6 months - I just looked it up for you.

its seems to be gettig a little better - he woke up at 6am today - would only have two ounces of mile so I gave him the rest with a weetabix at 8am - he went back to bed then until 11.30!! And he's just fallen asleep having a cuddle so I've popped him in to bed...
He seems to realise that I'm not going to get him up now as he tends to talk to himself in his cot and then fall asleep rather than crying manically as he did before..

Thanks for all the advice!

gini, I have just spent the last week doing controlled crying with a 6 month old, and I have to say that it has really worked. My ds has never been one for long naps in the day, 30-40 mins was his norm, but he was quite happy with that, then 3 weeks ago he decided he didn't want his dummy, didn't want to suck his thumb, and screamed when i tried to rock him off to sleep. As a consequence getting him off to sleep has been hopeless, and he used to go down really nicely in the evenings, and that also started to go wrong. I am not a fan of controlled crying, I wanted to avoid it, but i decided this week that it was the only thing that was going to work. Monday and Tuesday were awful, and he screamed through at least 2 nap times, so then he was even more tired (yes I was going in and calming him down etc) Then suddenly on wednesday he took his dummy again, and went off to sleep like a lamb. He now goes down for naps without a fuss (he winges a bit as he is going to sleep, but that is definitely different) and goes to bed without any problems. He doesn't always go straight to sleep, I can often hear him singing to himself for a while, but he has accepted that he isn't getting up, and it has made SUCH a difference. I do spend 5 minutes having a quiet cuddle in the dark bedroom before I put him down, and I know that helps. So, sorry this is long, but just wanted to say it does work, and daytimes are so much less stressful when he is not tired, and going to sleep isn't a battle. I hope it works out for you too Gini
ps, I have heard you shouldn't do this with a baby younger than 6 months

gini, I have just spent the last week doing controlled crying with a 6 month old, and I have to say that it has really worked. My ds has never been one for long naps in the day, 30-40 mins was his norm, but he was quite happy with that, then 3 weeks ago he decided he didn't want his dummy, didn't want to suck his thumb, and screamed when i tried to rock him off to sleep. As a consequence getting him off to sleep has been hopeless, and he used to go down really nicely in the evenings, and that also started to go wrong. I am not a fan of controlled crying, I wanted to avoid it, but i decided this week that it was the only thing that was going to work. Monday and Tuesday were awful, and he screamed through at least 2 nap times, so then he was even more tired (yes I was going in and calming him down etc) Then suddenly on wednesday he took his dummy again, and went off to sleep like a lamb. He now goes down for naps without a fuss (he winges a bit as he is going to sleep, but that is definitely different) and goes to bed without any problems. He doesn't always go straight to sleep, I can often hear him singing to himself for a while, but he has accepted that he isn't getting up, and it has made SUCH a difference. I do spend 5 minutes having a quiet cuddle in the dark bedroom before I put him down, and I know that helps. So, sorry this is long, but just wanted to say it does work, and daytimes are so much less stressful when he is not tired, and going to sleep isn't a battle. I hope it works out for you too Gini
ps, I have heard you shouldn't do this with a baby younger than 6 months

whoops, sorry, don't know how that happened

steppemum - really pleased it has worked for you. i've heard such different things about when controlled crying is appropriate -with ds1 we did it when he was at least 7 months if I recall properly. But I know some who have done it at 3 months with no regrets????

how is everyone else doing - ninja, ames, kaz33?

it seems to be going really well now - apart from when he decides he doesn't want to go to bed at night now - we had real hysterics last night.... but I do feel we are getting there, its more the daytime that was getting to me and I think last night was the result of leaving my mum and dads later than I wanted too and messing up his routine - more over tired than anything else. But thanks for all the advice, I'll let you know if we crack it!

Gini - your monday message could have been mine for yesterday, relatives can be hard work. Today she's been charming, slept well, not been grumpy and went to sleep with very little fuss. I just know something awful is about to happen!

MIL coming to saty tomorrow - so I hope she stays this good

I'm not sure where I read about the 6 month thing (it might even have been the article on sleeping on mumsnet ) But I know that just from how he interacts he would not have "got" it a month or so ago, definitely one of those things where you think, hmmm, I think it is about time for....
The cc seems to have worked, apart from anything, I am much more laid back about leaving him to cry for a few minutes, and so often it is just him settling himself down.
Actually I think that when we were going in all the time we were prolonging the going to sleep phase.

DS2 now 4 weeks old and going much better - he is starting to get himself into a routine. I have also got a lot more facist in making sure that he sleeps - not letting him stay awake for more than 2 hours ( ala GF ). I put him in the kitchen with the dryer or take him for a walk in his sling to send him off to sleep.

Its not a darkened room but then DS2 seems to prefer noise.

Only problem is that our electric bill is going to be sky high - does anyone know where I can get a tape/CD of white noise to send him to sleep.

Also I'm another one who is doing mixed feeding - he gets a bottle first thing in the morning and another last thing at night. He can go up to 5 hours before needing feeding again on that which is great.

He is still having to have occasional top up bottle feeds at other times but I am trying to cut these out by always offering the breast first.

My friend made her own tape of the hairdrier which worked, if you have no luck.

Grrrrrrr - thought we were making progress the last week or so - but have just had a really annoying weekend. Nighttimes are still good but daytimes can be hell.

Ds gets so very very overtired - raging cry and real tears now - getting him to sleep can be so difficult and then he wakes up 20 minutes later crying and still tired. I definately don't think he can last 2 hours after waking - but then I don't know when to put him to bed.

At night, he will settle himself to sleep from awake - why do you think daytimes are so very different. I realise I shouldn't really complain as nightimes are really good and believe me I appreciate that after ds1 who never slept more than 3 hours in a row till he was 7 months.

Sorry, realise this is rambling - but would really appreciate some feedback/ suggestions. Just to remind you he is just 7 weeks on tuesday.

Do you know what? I think I made some of my own life miserable by expecting my ds to sleep through. And he didn't. And he wouldn't conform to any of the books either. Later (much later) I found some of the timings in GF helpful. But he honestly wasn't ready at a few weeks. And by trying to make him fit a pattern I think I made myself miserable. He was and is a lovely, lovely boy, just no the sleeping through sort as a young one. But he really makes up for it now with two hours sleep in the day and eleven hours at night, which I think is my payback. He had a period of colicy crying which was absolute hell, but it did end, without me doing anything to make it stop. I think I'd get a battery operated swing with another baby, but apart from that I think you sometimes just have to ride it out. They change all the time. My ds has gone from sleeping 1 - 3 to 11-1 all of a sudden.

Sorry to hear your days aren't going very well Percy, but got loads of sympathy 'cos ds is still very up and down. Have been trying to sort of GF him! but success varies from day to day.

My only advice is to take advantage of the nice weather and get out. Thats what we've been doing even if its only a walk round to the shop, with dd on her reins it takes about an hour! I definatly feel less stressed, ds does settle normally, if the wheels keep turning and dd loves to walk. Its amazing how a baby can change from a screaming one to happy one if you can just all get out the door (and even if they are crying it doesn't seems so loud!)

I'll concentrate more on getting ds into a routine when his a bit bigger (11weeks now) I think I've been worrying to much about it. So what if he isn't following the textbook. You've got to deal wih the baby you've got. At the minute we're just trying to make each day a bit more enjoyable, and a bit less stressed.

Good luck, hope things improve soon

Just wondering how you're getting on Percy - it was getting better but now daytimes are a trial -

I'm lucky if she gets a couple of half hour kips! I'm thinking of just giving up trying to make her sleep as I seem to spend about 5 hours a day trying. Either that or buy one of those expensive swings! Night times are pretty good though.

oh ninja
your posting is so timely - i am having a nightmare. haven't been on mumsnet for ages due to broken computer - first day back.

i am finding things really hard in the day time too - and nights seem to also be deteriorating a little - he used to go 8 hours sometimes but now only 5 - which i suppose is still someting.

in such a very very foul mood today - dh back at 2am last night after work night out,, slaughtered, rang the doorbell, had a friend with him - they sat up talking very loudly for hours, ds2 up 3am and 5am for the day - and no help from dh who announced that minutes after getting out of bed, he had to go as he was late for work. i am fuming - have had 2 hours sleep!!!!!!!!

feel a bit better for that blurb - but hey enough about me. do you think that ds needs more sleep or is he one of those miracle babies who can cope with very little day time sleep. My ds definately isn't - gets so very cranky!