AIBU to wonder why many posters find it harder to make friends than find a life partner?

[Thepeopleversuswork]

I'm baffled at the number of people on Mumsnet who struggle with the most basic social interactions and find making friends to be traumatic, but have found a life partner to settle down and have kids with.

A significant number of posters on here struggle with friendship or social interaction to various degrees, manifested in the extreme in the declarations that they "hate people", "don't want new friends", find friends to be too much "drama" and only want to spend time with their families. There is a classic of the genre running at the moment in which an OP has taken umbrage at a coworker making fairly mild friendly overtures to her as a gross invasion of her privacy. (But admits that she met her partner at work?) Or just at the milder end of the spectrum the huge amount of anxiety which making new friends seems to generate.

I genuinely don't understand why people who have managed to find an intimate relationship in which to have children can find the prospect of exchanging words outside the school gate or sending a text to a coworker so traumatic.

I found attracting a partner and building a relationship to be a far more fraught and involved process than making friends: there's so much more to lose, so much more vulnerability needed and the prospect of loss of face and self-esteem in the process of dating is far greater than in making friends. But texting someone (platonically) to ask if they want to have a coffee seems to spiral posters into paroxysms of self-doubt. The "school mum" threads are a whole sub-genre in their own right, where the paranoia and suspicion is often seriously irrational.

Why do people find it relatively easy to find a partner but finding friends so difficult? From my perspective it should be the other way around.

Like the poster above I have autism. I do think that there are a lot of assumptions on this thread, by people who find it easy to socialise.

I initially found socialising easy when Ds was born. We joined Mother and toddler groups and met regularly with parents from my anti natal group. Initially, things were very inclusive, but cliques definitely formed and anyone who didn't fit the mould were gradually not included. This would be for a variety of reasons, in our case, our son's significant special needs, but for others it was a case of people being judged on appearance or perceived social status. The comments in the schoolground were absolutely spiteful.

There were smaller groups on the fringes and my friendships with those people have endured. Introverted people tend to find it harder to break into conversations in large groups. I also have friendships with ex colleagues and school friends, but new friendships are harder to navigate as I get older.

I think if people sense they don't fit in they are naturally become wary. Interestingly the worst group for excluding people had a super close knit group, which imploded like a house of cards, after one friendship spectacularly hit the skids. It isn't something that I'd have wished for them, but equally it was something I could have predicted.

Surely it isn't hard to understand that not everyone is equipped with the same social skills. I also think it is fine to protect your own privacy in a work based situation. Friendships can't be forced.

That's so true, I know people who were not that keen on socialising anyway and then when coupled up and had kids dropped it. There are some that I have heard actually say it will be great to use the kids as an excuse when they arrive instead of "too busy/tired/poorly". These are often people who are extremely close with family too (mum, dad, siblings) and don't seem to want/need much outside that. I wonder if it's something that feels too difficult for some so is just easier to drop once you have some of your social needs met by a partner and kids?

I also noticed this, but also a heavy level of social ineptitude, people advise going no contact for the most minor infraction, something that would normally be resolved with a quick conversation, has abuse hurled and go no contact comments , a huge reticence to socialise, any invite seen as an insult, be it to a wedding or a meal out, and even a desire not to answer the door but hide. Normal comments have threads started with a “ is this rude” with lots of posters saying yes it’s unbelievably rude when it’s not remotely.

i also think when younger they made an effort to socialise in an attempt to find a partner, then ceased doing so, let their friends fall away, and made their partner their whole lives, proclaiming them to be their best friend, when they mean only friend.

whichhas resulted in a lack of social skills. Included in this is many don’t work, so don’t even get social interaction that way, but for those who do, it’s under sufferance and they don’t wish to engage with their colleagues.

i wonder if their spouses are the same, socially awkward people together, or if one is more outgoing and socially interacts normally whilst the other stays home avoiding people.

i find it sad, i see so many threads where women are timid at the school gates, wanting to join in, eyeing other women enviously, angry and bitter they aren’t invited to join in, and think the simple fact they said hello and smiled means they should be invited, and think they are being purposefully invited, not realising the women aren’t even thinking about them.

@saraclara

There's a lot of judgment and blame on this thread, which I find hard to read. It's not always someone's own actions or decisions that mean they don't find it easy to make friends.

It wasn't intended as judgement or blame (OK: with the possible exception of some of the "bitchy school mums" comments, which I honestly do judge because they are so judgemental themselves).

On my part it's a genuine sense of bewilderment.

I totally understand why social interaction is difficult for people: it's difficult for almost everyone at some point or other, even roaring extroverts sometimes feel isolated. What I don't get at all is the assumption that its easier to find a life partner than it is a friend. This makes no sense to me at all, for reasons I've explained upthread.

I think a lot of people have convinced themselves that its easier to find a partner because subconsciously they've prioritised finding a partner over friends. And because that part has been difficult and draining enough for them, and because at some level they feel that is enough, they've made a conscious decision not to put themselves through more of it.

Often people meet their partners when they're young, carefree and spend all their time socialising because they perhaps don't yet have a serious job or a family or other responsibilities.

Once you get older, dynamics change, old friends move away, and by the time you come to making new friends, it's not as easy as you remember. Anything can feel nerve-wracking if you're out of practice, even something as seemingly trivial as trying to arrange a coffee date with one of the school mums you see daily.

Yes, I was coming from a place of having a lot of friends.

Interestingly, a lot of my friends are ND or self-confessed curmudgeons!

I must be built differently as I think finding a man who is
reasonably sexually attractive
financially independent
wants children or not
does equal amounts of housework and parenting
shares money equally
doesn't already have 4 difficult children
doesn't have a nutcase family
not possessive or jealous

much harder than making friends. I don't have to sleep with my friends or share parenting duties or put up with their batty mothers!

You’re not wrong!

Maybe it's partly what you had modelled by your parents/family too? Mine both always had friends and interests the whole way through my childhood that wasn't about the kids so it feels natural for me to do that too and seek others who are similar. Those I know who are more insular tend to have parents that were the same.

Surely it isn't hard to understand that not everyone is equipped with the same social skills.

I think there's enough caveats in this thread to cover that though.

Like I posted earlier, I have loads of ND friends 🤗. No idea if I am myself, but I fit in much better with the outliers!

There are actually a few people I know in real life who I often think are 'classic Mumsnetters.'

They are as described in OP but also love the ''ber' months and love saying so, decorate their homes with orange seasonal soft furnishings and wreaths, hate answering their front door and don't really smile much.

I often wonder if they are actually on MN. They probably aren't.

I mostly agree with your original post. I do think that there are (sometimes unspoken) demands on women around 'kin-keeping' as well as motherhood that can make it difficult to spend much time outside the family and investing in new friendships when old friends move on. A lot of people work from home now too, which might be a barrier to developing those casual work friendships.

I think social media and wfh have also made it very hard to sustain friendships.

Honestly? Probably because men do the seeking when it comes to dating - they ask you out, they romance you etc. There’s no such rule for friendship and who approaches and where you go for your first meeting.

Plus lots of people if single are open to romance. Loads of folk don’t want new friends.

I never found either hard, but my sister found both very hard. She is AuDHD. So there’s that too.

I also noticed this, but also a heavy level of social ineptitude, people advise going no contact for the most minor infraction, something that would normally be resolved with a quick conversation, has abuse hurled and go no contact comments , a huge reticence to socialise, any invite seen as an insult, be it to a wedding or a meal out, and even a desire not to answer the door but hide. Normal comments have threads started with a “ is this rude” with lots of posters saying yes it’s unbelievably rude when it’s not remotely.

I strongly agree with this. I think there's a certain personality type that is highly defensive and approaches social relationships as someone trying to get one over on them. People like this often bond with a partner who has the same viewpoint- in fact, their misanthropy makes their relationship stronger ("It's us against the world"). There's a lid for every pot.

I think this is very different from people who are pro-social but just a bit awkward about it due to personality, neurotype or simply having lost their social mojo a bit. It's always a shame when a thread on here posted by this latter sort of person is overrun by the former type of person because the advice given is so unhelpful ("I'm struggling to make friends as a new mum" "That's because they're all a load of cliquey bitches, you're better off without them.")

But why wouldn't you have been just as likely to encounter and bond with autistic friends? I think that's @Thepeopleversuswork 's question, really (and mine, because I've noticed exactly the same thing again and again on here) -- if you have the social skills and motivation and ability to put yourself out there in order to find a romantic partner/spouse, then you have the skills etc to make friends, surely.

Finding a romantic partner, with whom you may end up having children, sharing a home, splitting your finances, following one another around geographically for jobs etc is far more high stakes than most friendships.

I found my husband when I was young and wild, and had children young while most of my peers didn’t. I lost touch with most of my friends as they wanted to go out and party, while the ‘mum friends’ I made were mostly over a decade older and in a vastly different phase of life, so we never got very close. I have plenty of acquaintances that life brings me into contact with, and can chat and be friendly when I see them, but I’ve never been able to sustain close friendships as an adult.

I suspect it’s because my AUDHD makes me simultaneously socially awkward, intense, and drained by socialising with people I feel I need to put on a ‘normal’ front with. That wasn’t really an issue with forming a romantic relationship with my DH; sexual attraction smoothed over a lot of those issues, and then we were just close enough for me to not feel awkward, or need to mask around him.

So as mentioned in your OP I don’t want new friends, do find friends to be draining, and don’t really like most people (I was horribly bullied at school, and am wary). I would feel much more vulnerable trying to make a friend than trying to pull, and I always feel like no one would want to be friends with me. Romantic entanglements were easier when I was young because I didn't feel vulnerable, probably because men (and women) were willing to overlook a lot of social awkwardness if there was a prospect of sex (ugh). Also, I had a lot more dutch courage!

I’m perfectly capable of socialising politely in small amounts and making engaging small talk when needed (I actually find people tend to overshare to an alarming degree with me, so it’s probably good for them I have no one else to tell except my DH!) But no, I don't want friends, just acquaintances.

So you have to make it about feminism? That had absolutely nothing to do with frmale friendships. Try not to lump us altogether eh? You've seen a few examples. It's not the whole of women is it now?

Yes it is very hard indeed to find a man who measures up (I got lucky).
But at least you know what your requirements are.

What is the equivalent list of requirements for a friend? Are there multiple lists for different types of friend? How do you know which list applies to each potential new friend? Or do you swap from one list to another as the friendship progresses, in which case when do you swap? How do you know if your requirements list is reasonable?
Or are friendships supposed to have no lists of requirements? In which case how do you know what is acceptable from you and expected of you?

Not to mention the equivalent of 'dating' a new friend - no rules, no social expectations, nothing.

I think men just require much less from their relationships than women.
DD is seeing some of this in college now as some of her friends friendship groups are having issues, pushing one girl out etc. I just don’t have experience of boys don’t that half as much.

I think it is complicated if you have children and friends doing. I had a good friend who lived some distance away, to be honest by my 30s I was past big boozy nights out especially when I had children and was annoyed I wouldn’t come stay and do that.
I’ve lost friends because our children are no longer friends, friends who expected me to do lots for them (childcare) and nothing in return (one pushed me out when it became clear I wouldn’t take her children for the weekend).
I’ve also met people who I’ve gotten on with who just don’t want the effort of new friends.

Codependency? Fred and Rose West found each other.

I think we have already agreed that ND people have difficulties.
What about the others? The majority- I hope- who are NT?
I guess they may not be on MN.

For me it’s that I find it more difficult NOW to make friends as a result of having a husband and young children and working. I struggle for time and that’s the only reason. I used to make lots of friends at work but now work remotely and my office is an hour away.

But yes, I think the reason that partners are easier to find and maintain than friends for many people is that you don't get madly infatuated by friends, or feel the overwhelming desire to fuck your friends. Lust is a very effective social lubricant.

I think friendships can be harder to maintain as you get older, have children and have less time. You have to see your partner, have to see your kids, have to go to work, have to do chores. Friendships can be seen as optional so it’s an easier thing to let slide. You need to actively make time for each other rather than it being a standard part of your day.

Older more established friendships can take less work than new ones so people can fall back on those and not bother making the effort. I like making new friends and but older friendships can definitely feel easier. With school friendships your kids are also involved to an extent so (at least initially) you’re not just you, you’re Grace’s mum. So might feel more pressure around parental expectations or whether your kids get on.

I also wonder if some women in relationships are not used to doing any kind of chasing? A man approaching you romantically removes a lot of uncertainty that he actually likes you and wants to get to know you. If you’re the one approaching (for friendship) there’s more fear of rejection? I think it’d feel worse to be rejected by a woman than a man as it feels more personal? Not that they just didn’t fancy you.