Dog crates are cruel

[Poppycorn123]

In light of this terrible story I think they should be banned. Yes people will say they are good for training etc but I think in general they are being overused. A family member would put the dog in it while they have guests. Dog is not vicious or anything, just gets a bit excited as a young dog should. I think this is awful.

I would've thought so! I mean, I know now as an adult that leaving the dogs at home during school hours for three days during the term certainly wasn't ideal (although I'm not sure getting a walk from a dog-walker in the middle of the day as people do nowadays is much better, if they have a garden to run around in), but I feel like locking them in a cage is potentially much more frustrating to a dog.

We never had issues with destructive dogs past puppyhood, and they tended to sleep in one of our bedrooms on the floor by the bed and periodically patrol the house (and sometimes squeeze out the cat door!), rather than snooze in one spot all night.

Adult dogs aren't babies, and the thought of locking them up in a cage all night seems very restrictive for an adult animal. I imagine some don't really care and are happy to sleep all night, but in that case the cage wouldn't need to be shut, would it?

Keep being you, a deluded fool.

We've never crated any of our dogs and have no plans to start.

Train them well, have a consistent routine, and make sure they have their own basket to go to - no need for a crate.

I have answered, twice.

So what would your solution be for a relentless chewer? Yes, training. But at some point during that training, you have to eat, sleep, shower, go shopping. Or heaven forbid, work.

So what do you do with a 12 week old puppy, who you are redirecting everytime it chews, following training advice, do it it all to the letter when you can’t have eyes on them? Shut them in a room with no furniture, skirting boards or wires?

Puppies don’t chew due to lack of training, they chew like babies chew, because they have teeth coming through. Most puppies aren’t districtive chewers who will always do that - it’s just while they are teething.

Thry would feel a lot more secure in a quiet, dark crate that resembles a den than behind a door which they would probably get distressed and chew. They would soil that probably when they got distressed and be uncomfortable. Dogs do not soil crates where they sleep (unless left for hours on end, which obviously, is wrong).

You cannot watch a puppy 24 hours a day.

Also, when crate training a puppy you have a routine! For feeding, water, play, toileting, sleeping. I don’t think you know what crate training is or is used for.

Some people do it, some don’t. I didn’t with my four previous goldens - they were in a very small utility room with a baby gate, but same same. We had a routine for the training. There were not given the run of the house as puppies.

You're completely right.

However I don't think the OP wants to hear anything except all puppies/dogs must be with the their owners all day everyday, oh and also they should be watched all night. And if you can't do that (cos, you know, life and all that) you shouldn't have a dog. And you should expect your home to be destroyed, 'cos that's the deal when getting a dog. Or something...

I mean, I'm sure that will not cause any separation anxiety in the dog.

I expect they also simultaneously believe that dogs should not be in pubs or cafes etc as well, and should be left at home because the world doesn't revolve around your dog.

Lol, that argument is genuinely so stupid. Yes, if the crate door is closed, the dog has to stay in it. Congratulations on realizing how doors work. That does not remotely prove the crate is cruel. The fact that properly crate-trained dogs will voluntarily go sleep in the exact same crate when the door is open is evidence that they do not inherently experience the space as some horrifying little prison.

And the “would YOU like to be locked in one?” comparison is toddler-level reasoning. I’m not a dog. I also wouldn’t enjoy eating kibble off the floor, wearing a collar, being transported in a dog crate, or having someone else decide when I go outside to pee. Dogs are not tiny furry humans, and responsible confinement is a completely normal part of dog ownership, training, travel, veterinary care, conformation, sports, and breeding.

The actual issue is duration, training, and welfare. Leaving a dog crated all day every day with no exercise or interaction can absolutely be cruel. Crating a properly trained dog for a reasonable period because it cannot safely be loose, needs to settle, is traveling, or there are guests over is not. “The door closes, therefore cruelty” is such a spectacularly unserious standard that by that logic every kennel, veterinary cage, grooming enclosure, and secured car crate is abuse too.

I do wonder how people managed before 'crating' became a thing?

I had loads of friends and family with dogs growing up, including our own dogs, and no one had ongoing issues with dogs destroying the house that I know of, beyond some expected wear and tear. Oh, except for the family friends with the Pomeranians they didn't bother training, who weed all over the carpet

What's different now, I wonder?

My parents always had dogs and so did my grandparents.

They were confined in other ways. Baby gates, in utility rooms, outbuildings.

Not ours, but many dogs from puppies were tethered outside.

And makeshift crates of course.

My mum used to train all of our dogs just like I do. She had an area of the kitchen with an old cot with the legs cut off when the dogs were puppies. Did the same routine with feeding/sleep/toilet until they had learned and had stopped chewing.

My grandparents used to keep their young dogs confined to the utility.

Dogs were also left outside in the garden with an outdoor kennel all day in all weathers for just this reason, so they didn't wreck houses - which now is deemed as not only cruel but also very antisocial to your neighbours when they inevitably barked and/or escaped.

So if the option is crate for an hour or two with a treat and access to clean water and dry warm bed, or being thrown into the rain outside, I know which one my dog would prefer!

Same here. My grandparents had a few litters of puppies, and they were kept in the bathroom. It was amusing using the loo, and having a load of puppies trying to climb up your legs.
I have never known anyone to let a puppy have free reign of the house until they were past the chewing stage and were fully house trained.

Nor me. Apart from on mumsnet when no one leaves them for a second.

Crates are fine.

Neglecting a dog in a crate, or a field or a penthouse in London, is all very bad.

I suppose that yes, I do recall puppies often being kept in the kitchen and laundry while young, when unsupervised, as there was nothing in there they could destroy! Or with the use of a wooden clothes-airer as a 'baby gate', kept in the dining room, in the case of one friend's puppy. But that still seems kinder than a crate. There's room to run around, a cosy nest to retreat to, toys and the space to play with them - it just seems less restrictive than shutting them in a small cage. Plus it's only temporary, while they're little.

I didn't know anyone who kept their dogs outside 24/7 unless they were working dogs, but I was probably just lucky in not knowing any cruel owners, as they did exist back then.

That's not my experience. Every dog I knew growing up had access to the garage, or a cosy, weather-proof kennel, if they were left alone for long periods during the day. No one was throwing their dog out into the cold and rain!

It just didn't seem like house destruction was an issue past puppyhood.

But that’s not kinder for a dog. Dogs like small, dark dens. It comforts them. They don’t go to the toilet where they sleep when it’s a small space so it helps them with toilet training.

People just go about it the wrong way. They shove an 8 week old puppy in one on its own the first night it’s home, it starts to howl and they give up thinking it’s cruel.

Sadly, I did know someone who did keep their dog outside. The parents of my first boyfriend. It lived in a small kennel, and had a small patio area. They had a massive garden, but the poor dog was not allowed in the rest of it. He never went in the house as the owner said he was destructive. Never went on walks because he pulled on the lead. The patio area was just covered in poo. I was with my boyfriend for about 6 months until I knew they even had a dog.
For some reason, my boyfriend's older brother bought a duck, and it was allowed free reign of their garden.

A breeder once told me she thinks the rise in destructive dogs is because they are treated like children.

Never left alone, always the centre of attention, treated like a human rather than a dog and it created separation anxiety when they are left.

You have to leave them for short periods and build up from the word go.

Obviously, some dogs will just have an anxious personality, but I don’t think people do their dogs any favours by never leaving them alone.

During house training, i set the alarm and got up every 2 hours through the night. He also went out regularly throughout the day. Any more questions?

Poor thing. That's bloody horrible. People shouldn't get dogs if they're just going to mistreat them like that.

I agree - that seems right. They're animals, not babies, and they need to be treated as such. In regards to your other comment, they definitely need a little den to cosy away in. I just can't get past the idea that shutting them up in a cage feels too restrictive. But it seems as though you're a dedicated owner, so I assume you know what you're doing!

But you have to restrict them. My dog would take her self into her crate from when she came home.

But if she needed a wee? She would have hopped out and done it on the carpet. Fancied the look of that wire in the corner? She would have hopped out and chewed it.

Says the person who's never owned a dog to the person who owns five and has been breeding and rescuing for 20+ years.

I think I might know a bit more about how to use crates than you. But please, continue in your ignorance and with your alarmist attitude. It's quite amusing to read. Like the twilight zone, or indeed twilight. I do love a bit of fiction.

It’s maddening, isn’t it?

@Poppycorn123 - without a crate, how should we have protected our dog after her three knee surgeries? Three orthopaedic operations where cage rest was prescribed by the veterinary surgeon who did the operations, because of the damage that could have been done if she had tried to run, jump, change direction too fast, or if she had slipped on the floor.

She was not even allowed to walk unaided to the garden to do her business - she had to be on a short lead, with a strap under her belly that we held, so we could prevent even the smallest slip. We had to support her back end going up or down the steps to and from the lawn, and, because she wouldn't do her business on the lead, we had to build a cage on the lawn, big enough for her to do her business, but small enough she couldn’t get up speed to jump out.

This is the level of care that she needed after her surgeries, and if we hadn’t taken proper care - meaning cage rest - of her then, she wouldn’t not have had several more pain free, active years.

We have a crate, it’s in a quiet place of the house when she goes if she wants some quiet time. It has a very comfortable bed in it and it’s got a black throw over it.

Normally she prefers to sleep on the sofa no later than 9.30pm but if we are staying up later, she will huff which is the prompt for her bedtime wee and then she will go to her crate after another sigh.

I don’t see this as unfair or cruel. She has a great life and I’m not going to kick people out of the house so she can pick her prime sleep spot. She already had two beds in the living room or a choice of two sofas.