Where are all of the Labour voters in real life?!

[PBEEBIES]

I grew up on a council estate. I would say the majority of the people here were very “I’m happy for people to come to this country, but those who come over and don’t work/don’t assimilate are unwelcome” as their main political belief. Despite being a poor area with the majority of people on some form of benefit, they believed that people who work shouldn’t have to pay super high levels of tax and people should be able to keep what they earn etc.

I went to university and associated with “posher” people for the first time. I would say the political beliefs held by these people were very similar to those held by the people I grew up around. I met a few people that were stronger to the left and right here, but to generalise, the majority were all pretty middle of the road/right leaning in the same way that they were on my council estate.

I now have a well paid professional job and live in quite a “posh” area. The people here again, generally hold the same views as everybody at my university and the council estate I grew up on. Probably slightly more right leaning, but all pretty similar on their thoughts on immigration, taxation, government spending priorities etc. We’ve recently completed a house renovation and if ever the topic of politics came up with the tradesmen we were using (eg. If the news was on when we were in the same room), the general consensus was still the same. I have also noticed that 99% of people I have spoken to all seem to be anti Covid vaccine/think that there was some kind of government conspiracy with hiding the negative effects of the vaccine - this is ranging from the drs I know, to the tradesmen, shop assistants, students etc (not just a small section of society).

I’m suprised that considering I’ve lived in multiple cities in both rich and poor areas, socialised with and have friends in professional careers as well as tradesmen, students, across all ages… most people I encounter seem to all hold the same political views.

I have genuinely only ever met a few truly left wing people in my life, in real life. For example, I’ve never met anyone in real life who has stood up and said “I think that we should take asylum seekers as they’re at risk in their own countries” even though this isn’t extreme! I’ve never met anyone who has said “I think that our taxes should be raised so that we can improve public services”, or “I think it’s really important that we spend on making our country more energy efficient as this is important for eradicating climate change”. How is this possible?! Everyone I’ve ever discussed politics with across a wide range of social classes , careers, ages, locations has always been centre/right.

Please don’t focus on the fact that I’ve used immigration as an example throughout this, it was just one of the stronger examples that I can think of! Another example would be the trans issue - I’ve never met anyone who thinks anything other than “trans people are free to do whatever they like, but sex is a biological fact that you cannot change”.

People vote in line with their own views, which may not be yours.

Quite I can't believe that poster just said that.

She genuinely thinks that people who don't vote as she does is deliberately doing so to prove a point?

Is what annoys me about some left-wing voters they genuinely think that people don't know any better and need to be educated about their views.

People just have different views.

I don’t believe that 99% of people you’ve encountered think Covid was a conspiracy and are anti-Vaxers. What I do wonder is whether you are confusing a healthcare professionals opinion that the vaccine given to most NHS workers Was definitely sought to be superior to the AstraZeneca one provided to the wider general public And yes, I know quite a few NHS workers who wouldn’t take the Astrazeneca jab.

The other thought I have is how you are framing your questions and interpreting their responses. So a conversation could go (apologies for the very basic example!):
YOU: ” i’m all for helping people in need, but immigration is clearly out of control”
PAL ”yes I do think the system needs overhauling”

you hear someone agreeing with your political views when in actual fact they may be wanting even more open borders or they could agree we need to control immigration but otherwise be left leaning politically.

I’d be thinking about those who earn millions. The VERY rich. Not salaried people on £100k.
Id be think companies not paying taxes - Amazon, Google, banks, petrol etc etc

That would be a very good start.

My SIL works for the World Health Organisation and says many there (in private) say to avoid the covid vaccine. But apparently it is a far right thing to question the safety of the vaccine and those on the left will pillory you. Very odd imo that we cannot challenge a vaccine that was rushed through in record time. Time will tell I suppose.

Personally I have had all my vaccines as I am a sheep!

Interesting, that is precisely where I'd expect to find left wing people. Why would you think not?

What taxes are they not paying? Have you reported them to HMRC?

I'd guess they are paying vastly more than you are and contribute massively more to job creation, funding services etc than you do?

I would say they should pay a tax based on their revenue/income earnt in this country but to say they aren't paying their taxes is just brainless slander.

Id be think companies not paying taxes - Amazon, Google, banks, petrol etc etc.

I don’t know about banks and petrol, but I imagine with Amazon and google etc. I’m sure if there was a way of making them pay tax then it would be done.
I guess the only way would be for every country which uses them to agree on a global tax - and that won’t happen.

I'm from a medical family, I was as a young person always told that it is best to avoid new medications if possible, because problems would typically emerge in the first 10 years.

Nothing has ever made me think that's a bad approach. And I think most doctors know it's sensible because they see where problems do emerge in their practice.

I don’t think being a Labour voter is inconsistent with wanting managed migration. Record net migration levels were reached during the Tory years.

And many people are inconsistent on taxes. They don’t want sky high taxes but do want good services. I also think it’s simply circles. Most of the people I know are Labour / Green / Lib Dem. Just like most people I know are pro-remain. But that probably is more to do with demographic circles.

« Celui qui n'est pas communiste (ou de gauche) à vingt ans n'a pas de cœur ; celui qui l'est encore à quarante ans n'a pas de tête. »

And
”let others be taxed” (Marcus Aurelius) - I think the original is Greek.

Things haven’t really changed!

The right is at a structural advantage given the ageing population and is using social media to try and manipulate the youth. And the education system is somewhat complicit in dumbing down the youth - largely reduced to numbers, data, grade culture and mass control and childcare, rather than being taught to think. It is only at university level that anyone is allowed to debate and think properly. But apparently even there there is “right think” (no paradox intended)

So if you are right leaning, I really don’t think you need to worry much as everything is pointing towards you getting your way anyway.

I don’t really care whatever political spectrum people sit on. As long as they can debate and think properly and continue to do so.

I think the pragmatists in the Labour Party pretty much understand the fundamentals above, but the idealists aren’t there yet.

I equally don’t believe 99% of people think the vaccine did more harm than good. I am afraid I think that’s your view and you’re looking for approbation and people are just nodding to shut you up. It’s far more nuanced than that.

As indeed is politics. I am centre left but I think the NHS and benefits are unsustainable and we need to look to the best European models. I think immigration is necessary but we need to maintain cultural norms. Two things can be true at once. I generally refuse to discuss politics as it makes people crazy and not even my DH knows who I vote for - and I don’t ask him either. It’s personal. I don’t mind who my children vote for as long as they look at the issues and then vote.

People are complex and everyone’s situation is different. You’re looking for consensus and forgetting that everyone’s experience is not yours.

But apparently it is a far right thing to question the safety of the vaccine and those on the left will pillory you.

I agree that is odd - but then iirc, claiming that the virus came from a lab rather than a wet market was racist. I’ve never understood that one, unless the Chinese govt. knew that making such an accusation would shut people up.

No I don’t think so. The institutions including academia point left. It’s really the voters who are pushing against that status quo.

And as seen many of those voters are no longer in affluent areas.

There’s a tussle ongoing but I don’t read it as put here.

Although I will say Labour are shifting somewhat because they politically want to survive.

Are you always this patronising?

Ok I’ll rephrase then
Many of the very rich are paying less taxes in proportion than most people do.
In average they are paying 10% taxes on their income vs 20% of most people (not going into the 40% increase etc…).

They can afford it, just like all of us have to afford tge 20% tax on our income.

Companies are different, get rebates right left and centre.

It might not be illegal. It’s certainly ethically wrong imo.

Ah so we're down from 'most' to 'a lot' now. So not the vast majority you originally claimed then. Obviously not, because Labour were voted in legally.

Despite your canvassing everyone you come into contact with. How disappointing that despite holding extreme views you can't sway everyone.

And I think most doctors know it's sensible because they see where problems do emerge in their practice.

i disagree
I have been injured by the Moderna vax. I haven’t had one doctor taking that seriously. Apparently me developing symptoms right after (as in the next day) is just correlation, not causation.
I know quite a lot of people in the same position. Only one who has been recognised as vaccine injured.

So yes I very much doubt that ‘what they see in their clinic’ is a reflection of what problems are happening or how often. It’s too tainted in bias on what can or cannot happen after a vax etc…

Same with LC btw.

MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · Today 11:19
You seem to have an exceptionally narrow social circle, OP. I meet people in my daily life from all across the political spectrum, and I certainly don't see the very narrow pattern that you have observed

I meet plenty of different people but I have no idea how most of them vote or what political views they hold because we don’t normally talk about politics. Do you ask people their views when you meet them?

Because it's a new thing? Until the last general election, the last time my constituency MP was not Conservative was 1906. Because generally economists are not thought of as being very left wing? The most widely read newspaper among my colleagues is probably the FT, which has not historically been thought of as left wing. I admit that university academics in general have been more left wing, but not economists. Obviously there is variation, but I'd say on average we tend towards more centre right on economic issues and more left/liberal on social issues.

I am a labour voter, always have been. I don't believe trans women are women or that we should have unrestricted immigration, and I have nuanced views on the benefits bill, I'm not sure why you think that would make me not vote labour.

I know lots of other Labour voters, as well as Lib Dem, Green and floating centrist. I have a few Tory friends, generally more centrist than the party appears to be at the moment. I do know people who believe in unrestricted immigration and that trans women are women, although I don't think most people agree with them.

People have different priorities- they might want much lower immigration but not see that as a top three issue for them so vote differently. And people's opinions don't fit into a neat little box either- I've known people who would claim to be ardent Tory free marketeers but then have very state interventionist opinions on idiosyncratic things, and Labour supporters who also want the death penalty back or are completely pro-life.

I know very few people still talking about the COVID vaccines except those who are strong anti-vaxxers and have to let everyone know it. Most people want to forget that time and move on IME.

I do think a lot of people try to be polite and agreeable, a lot of people think it's none of your business who they vote for, and I have met plenty of people (of all persuasions) who think everyone agrees with them because all right thinking people must do so, when people are actually trying to get away from them or move the conversation to any other subject.

Yeah, nothing OP has said about the views of people she meets excludes them being Labour voters - and of course quite a lot of people will vote for different parties across their life time. ‘Open borders’ has never been a Labour policy that I’m aware of, and there’s really no reason vaccines should be a left/right issue.

Labour have recently switched for political survival. The visa policies were done before they got in and Mahmood is a recent change to try and stop Reform.

Also, do remember that about 20-30% of people have probably never voted at all, and politics might seem an alien concept to them. That doesn't mean they don't have opinions.

It’s not unusual for an economist in a university to be left wing. It’s the university that’s a major sorter.