Do you think that schools are okay?

[applejane11]

When I was in school, I remember absolutely hating school. I like learning. What I hated was the constant feeling of being in a prison, having no freedom. Having to sit for 7 hours a day and not speak. Having no say at all in most things. Constantly being controlled. I remember every morning, feeling dread when I woke up to go in.

I now actually work in a school in an admin position. Ive worked in lots of different companies. Now im in a school. I hear the teenagers say the same things all the time. They hate it, they feel like they are in prison, that it is awful, that they feel depressed every day, that all their young life is wasted. I also have to say, I definitely see school teachers abuse their power over the students. Not in a way that you could say is definitely abuse, but just in a way where you can see that they are really loving having power and control over the teenagers.

Do you think that schools are okay the way that they are? Teenagers don't have a lot of say in things or a lot of human rights, so it's adults that need to have the conversation about it.

Teacher here, I don't see any of that in my school. They don't sit in silence for 7 hours a day, their opinions and rights are always being discussed and acted upon and teens will often band about the word 'depressed' like they know what that really is. What else would you expect? To home school all children and teens? The same ones would still say they feel like they were in prison.

I don’t think schools prepare kids for the world that we actually live in anymore.

No, I don’t think they are ok although not necessarily for the reasons you said.

the last school I worked at had over 2000 students.
many teens really struggle in a school that size.

at primary they’re in a class of 30 with one teacher. There’s a small social group.

at college or sixth form it’s usually a small social group of those on their course (btec or vocational etc). Most sixth forms are relatively small.

in between it can genuinely be hard for students to build social relationships with anywhere between 7 and 14 teachers a week and a constantly changing group of kids as they are set for each lesson.

many students get socially lost and find it hard. The smaller schools are often better at building relationships simply because it’s actually possible.

There's a lot more known that even one generation ago, and not enough money/staff to allow for the differences, in terms of SEND and schools taking on a parenting role/children from troubled families. My kids say how much time is wasted everyday by disruption, and how violence seems to be tolerated in a way it wasn't in the past. Lots of people on here have written about attacks, or about children just having to be moved away/almost corralled, or needs not met, and teachers leaving the profession because of how stressful it's become, so I think things need to change. No disrespect to the teachers who are trying to do the impossible, like many of the staff in the NHS.

I work in a MAT with lots of schools. My job takes me into all our schools and none of them are quiet!!! I would be extremely worried if students weren’t allowed to speak! There will always be students for whom school is not the right environment, I meet those all the time.

I do wholeheartedly agree with @Nousernameideaaga that schools don’t prepare students for the real world - my job is all about changing that but it’s really really difficult to convince individual school leaders of that fact! They get judged on exam outcomes not future employability.

I didn't like the pressure of constantly being assessed in school and remember that feeling of dread. Although I went to school in a different country and so I felt far less controlled and like my opinions mattered. Just constantly under pressure with tests.

I also hated the social scene and made all my friends outside of school.
Today I think that there are far too many big assessments - 11+, SATs, GCSEs, A levels... and far too much coursework.

I'd replace it with occasional.tests for determining sets and no coursework at all, just written and oral exams. Small ones just to demonstrate basic literacy and aptitude in a few topics at 14/15 and then the serious stuff for A levels / a baccalaureate. Coursework is stress for everyone and demonstrates strictly nothing at all. In real life you have to perform on the day, by yourself, in a time frame.

I’ve worked in schools for 30 plus years now. Out of interest what do you think schools should be doing to prepare pupils for the real world?

No i don't think schools are ok and we left UK because of this but not of the reasons you list.

I think it depends on the school and the child. I loved school and still look back fondly, and my children go to absolutely amazing schools. They are always happy to go in, have loads of cool opportunities through school and lovely friendship groups. I can understand why they don’t work for a lot of children though.

I think they are designed to control people. Teenagers in my school and other teenagers that I know tell me that

They can't go to the bathroom when they want to. Girls are often not given adequate time to change period products.
They can't adjust their uniform in the hot weather to feel comfortable.

Re. talking, to clarify: students can talk when the teacher speaks to them, they can't talk to each other in classes all day
(unless directed to do work in a group together)

In workplaces, I can say to my co-worker in the office ' how are you'.

When I was in school, students would get get told to leave the classroom for daring to talk to each other. Even if they just asked each other for a pen or something.

Same thing in the school I'm working in now. They are not allowed to say a word to each other for hours at a time. Only if its group work directed by a teacher

Yes also the level of disruption is another thing. I don't think one adult trying to control 30 teenagers was ever a well thought out idea. Its not good for teachers or students. The staff to student ratio does not work

I'm a teacher. To put some perspective on it, I have been described as 'firm but fair,' I see that as the ultimate compliment.

We do not insist on silence, but while i'm speaking they listen and the culture in my class must be one of respect, for me, for them, for everyone. As such it lends itself to polite silence while working, respecting that students need to focus and concentrate.

You need the loo? Fine, what work have you done? Nothing...!? Well, clearly a sanction and show me some effort. You've been working hard and responsibly? I trust you.

It wouldn't work for every teacher. But I swear by it.... And on the whole, the pupils respond well and I have been able to build very positive relationships.

Build experiences of the world of work into the curriculum. This is the most important change of all. Most teachers (I was one for 20+ years) haven’t got up to date understanding of the world of work.

Bring in more guest speakers and alumni to talk about their career and life.

Focus on skills not knowledge - a knowledge rich curriculum is pointless as is making children regurgitate that knowledge onto an exam paper. In the real world skills matter more than holding onto loads and loads of knowledge.

Remove high stakes exams for the reasons above. There are other ways to measure progress.

Practically we need smaller classes and longer breaks/lunchtimes - social skills are severely lacking.

And whilst it would see me out of a job I would love for MATs to be gone too!! Running schools as businesses is morally reprehensible.

I've got mixed feelings. On the one hand I really don't like the sound of those draconian type schools where your eyes have to follow the teacher at all times when they're talking. I think schools can have too harsh a regime or too much focus on petty rules.

On the other hand learning essential stuff isn't always going to be fun. Sometimes you have to force yourself to do things that are dull or hard work but will benefit you in the long run.

I think what I'm getting at is that you can't remove all the feelings of dread from education.

Secondary teacher for 25 years now a supply/union officer.

The Global Education Reform Movement (GERM) aka the privatisation of state education has rendered schools punitive places.

The emphasis on league tables and a narrow academic curriculum has largely caused this.

Teachers are fearful and kids are at the brunt of this.

Most kids are highly resilient and fantastically funny and tough their way through it. But for some it’s just too much, hence the mental health epidemic.

It’s also caused many parents to seek SEND diagnosis as a way of helping young ones cope which has led to current SEND crisis and attendance crisis.

Home Education through covid lockdown was a respite for some kids . A lot of kids now refuse and receive home education through medical needs or alternative provision.

There’s nothing wrong with firm but kind boundaries but it’s become obsessive and abusive.

It also makes no economic sense because the clientele are voting with their feet!

My two have / are doing 11 GCSEs, 4 A-Levels and there’s been no coursework to do. Just revision for exams.

Teacher here. Have also previously had significant contact with prisons in a professional capacity. Schools are nothing like prisons. It's quite concerning that, as support staff in a school, you're projecting an entirely false equivalence.

Kids are allowed to speak. Chit chatting about random stuff that's got nothing to do with the lesson isn't useful for their learning. They can do that in the 75% of the time that they're not at school. Their lives aren't blighted by something that only takes up a quarter of it. Same as your life wasn't so miserable because of something you were only doing for the minority of the time.

Can you be a teaching union officer while on supply?

Are you sure? A lot of GCSES and A levels have non examined assessments of some kind.

It's incredibly insulting to say teachers don't have an up to date understanding of the world of work. I understand my sector - education - brilliantly. The fact that people think being a child and adult in school is remotely similar shows they absolutely don't understand the sector. My brother works in the NHS and understands his sector - health - brilliantly. Neither of us could really say we understand my husband's sector of finance very well, or his wife's sector of engineering etc etc. People act like there's the world of education and...everything else. The reality is most people don't know much about the world of work outside their own little bubble. (I say all this as someone who career changed into teaching).

From my experience of two at secondary school it isn’t the sitting quietly during lessons that makes school difficult. It’s the rollercoaster ride of friendships. Girls seem to have this a whole lot worse than the boys, although boys do go through some upsetting periods too.

Two separate roles. I’m on local division committee and from September will do casework for union. Also a couple of days supply so I can do the job I loved without the hideous work load.

Life lessons though surely? It’s not pleasant I’ve been through it with my daughter but it’s how we learn to navigate relationships isn’t it? You’ll never stop people being unpleasant towards each other, children or adults.

Absolutely this. My daughter has teachers she likes, ones she likes less. (The ones she likes tend to be of the 'firm but fair' variety, no favouritism, clear expectations. The ones she doesn't like seem to be unclear, have favourites)

But the thing which is the hardest is the friendships, low level bullying, peer pressure, finding a balance between fitting in but also being her own person - I'm very proud of how she has navigated this.

'I'm projecting a false equivalence". Did you read my post?

I wrote that it's the students in my school - who say the school feels like a prison. I didn't say it. Shouldn't their opinions be listened to?

They say it a lot. That the school feels like a prison.

The reasons are:

they can't wear clothes to suit the hot weather, while the teachers can.
They can't use the bathroom when they want to.
They can't speak when they want to.
They get shouted at by some teachers.
They are constantly controlled