AIBU to wonder whether ADHD is normal and society is the issue

[LadyBeatriceBeaHiggins]

No offence intended

Discussing about Adhd with a friend who has Adhd and we wondered what if Adhd is naturally a part of being human and its the way society trys to make humans into machines that is the problem ?

so figured id open up our debate for fellow mumsnetters

Absoluley
My son has a rare chromosome disorder thought to be the under lying cause of his ASD learning disabillities
Whilst these disorders cam be inherited from a parent its de novo in him

I would agree with this for some children.

For others I know who’ve been diagnosed, the Army would be an excellent career for them. Structure, loads of physical activity and routine. I remember teaching a child who’d been diagnosed about 20 years ago. He thrived on all the approaches designed for autism (which my autistic pupils ignored and avoided), structure, short learning approaches, tangible rewards, physical activities etc. we were told his father repeat offended petty crimes in order to return to prison - craving routine, structure. It’s thought many in prison probably have adhd. Doesn’t excuse the crimes but could mean that better support earlier in life might have helped. (I’m in favour of the government’s approach for more physical routes in education.)

diagnosis is a double edged sword.

I would prefer a diagnosis of executive function difficulties and then a profile which pin points the specific difficulties the individual has. And then all manner of interventions- some physical eg OT/ physio , some routine based, and in certain circumstances, for those who really can’t filter and focus, medication.

It does get extremely difficult when a child is living in a chaotic home where the parents are also really struggling. It’s hard to tell in those circumstances what is causing the executive function issues; environment or if it’s their own health.

Sometimes the parents have extreme adhd, medical and mental health issues. It’s clearly heritable. But also trauma and chaotic home life can impact. It matters from the pov of medicalisation, does the child need a more stable background or would the child benefit from medication ?

An often ignored symptom is haphazard exhaustion. Falling asleep randomly. And extreme swings of emotions. Children becoming exceptionally angry very quickly and loosing their tempers. However, if you’ve had disrupted sleep and are experiencing parental swings of emotion in similar fashions, is the child likely to be being affected by their environment?

The condition definitely exists; one just spent a year with several children who are autistic but varying levels of ability to focus and filter and impulsive sensory seeking behaviours make teaching very challenging. Some are awaiting adhd diagnosis but the only reason is to see if meds might help. The one who was medicated has made the most progress but alongside an awful lot of environmental approaches too.

It’s about safeguarding other soldiers and the public. Those in the forces are handling deadly weapons,machinery and the lives of others-safety needs to be paramount That trumps everything.

Agree, surely everyone can relate to the symptoms of functioning ADHD? Genuine question, I know I can. I don't know anyone who has good concentration and doesn't feel overwhelmed these days. Mine is shot to bits but I do blame modern life and getting older.

My point is more around the fact that adhd isn’t a clear cut diagnosis.

Some may not get the diagnosis and go into the army and it could be really beneficial for them. Others not - but the army has ways to vet those who can’t cope.

Suzanne OSullivan describes exactly these issues in that some of the people who probably would most benefit from diagnosis aren’t getting it but also that many who are perhaps aren’t being well served by it.

yes this is the quandary.

Many, equivalent to those who presently have an adhd diagnosis, but in the days before it was recognised, would once have been in the armed forces especially say in the war when people were called up.

I wonder if any retrospective studies have been made looking for reports where adhd -type symptoms in a person lead to adverse outcomes? Of course in this case trauma and ptsd could skew any research unless it were accounted for.

Ok well by that logic we shouldn’t safeguard anything when using newly acquired knowledge and expertise.

Everyone will debate the condition but the real question is what helps?

There’s been a severe lack of funding of educational research and resources for OTs and send in schools during the last gov.

every OT I speak to describes all sorts of issues with processing and coordination amongst lots of these children that could be targeted early on and worked on. Along side specific salt assessments and interventions.

It should be possible to do all this with input a diagnosis tbh. But it’s not. I do think this is the way the gov adhd / asd and send education review is going.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-into-mental-health-conditions-adhd-and-autism-interim-report/independent-review-into-mental-health-conditions-adhd-and-autism-interim-report

As with the ‘autism debate,’ imho it’s whether the young person also has a level of learning difficulty too.

Paradoxically, extreme levels of adhd completely inhibit the ability to learn.

I’ve seen a child start meds and learn to read in a term, in y6, because he could finally focus.

Re the armed forces I was wondering about (at that time) undiagnosed adhd and say instances of loss of impulse control - perhaps someone shooting a gun too soon; or being careless with explosives. But on the other hand maybe someone with adhd and lack of impulse control coukd havd been extremely brave and taken daring spur of the moment actions.

The issue is that the diagnosis is a subjective list of observed or self reported behaviour.

That is very interesting, thank you.

That report mentioned that particularly with autism, ^environmental supports materially
alter presentation^

Do you know what supports these are and how they alter the presentation in ASD in children?

That was to yellowpostitnote · Today 17:50

I’ll come back to this as brain cells juggling too many demands 😁 I think I know what it means but I want to check some things

Thoughtful post.

I think sometimes people want to make a distinction between "trenders" and people with "real" ADHD/autism/similar. So they use the barrier of "does this person have a diagnosis" to mean "is this person worth taking seriously".

I come at this from the point of view that a lot of environmental adjustments that currently are associated with diagnosed conditions, should be brought back into play as helpful things that people should consider trying if they're struggling with executive function - no diagnosis needed, and it doesn't imply that you "weren't really struggling" if you didn't seek a medical diagnosis for it, just as a medical diagnosis doesn't necessarily imply you have a real, serious condition. There are plenty of factors that influence whether someone seeks out a medical diagnosis.

It's not a quandary at all, because ADHD is a lot more than just "not that good concentration and feeling overwhelmed" 🙄

You might as well call OCD "worrying about having left the iron on"

How patronising. Do you not get that the vast majority have tried everything and a diagnosis and resulting meds are life changing. It can stop suicidal idealisation, dangerous self medication,a destroyed education, risky and impulsive behaviour which are all part and parcel of ADHD. It is so dangerous to lecture to struggling parents and sufferers suggesting that an organic diet and zero phone life will magically make it all away. Most of us have tried everything or didn’t even grow up with either. Many young people under MH services induced by ADHD need swift diagnosis and medication not do gooders who have no idea of the the reality that is ADHD telling us how to parent. Children and adults are waiting far too long for diagnosis and medication as it is hence diagnosis levels being so low in the uk.

I think it does a significant disservice to people struggling with executive function to pretend that environmental changes are pointless. An environment well-aligned with how you already naturally work/think is a game-changer in terms of the level of friction you have to work around. Which is OP's point in this thread.

Whenever I propose environmental changes as something that can help, people always act as if I've said something like "your condition is very trivial so it can be solved with some trivial lifestyle changes".

Environmental factors are very far from trivial, they're the baseline of people's entire existence. The PP's example of the guy who really liked the army because of the external structure is what I mean. The life of a deployed soldier and the life of, say, an artist with a patron/spouse and full freedom, are totally different environments and if you're struggling with one maybe the other will be the making of you.

One of the things I support for example is more variation in school types. 30 kids in a room is an environment that many people aren't going to get along with.

But sure, go off at me for saying something I didn't say.

We’re talking about ADHd and those diagnosed with it not people with a bit of executive function that can be healed by a UPFree diet and screen diet.

Now who's being patronising? "A bit of executive function"

I suspect that the only world in which my ADHD would not hold me back would be one in which a gun is held against my head every time I want to do anything.

I can't speak for anyone else but for me it's medication or extreme and immediate external pressure. Nothing else seems to help.

You’re the one saying it can be dealt with by lifestyle choices!

That's how I attempt to manage my ASD and ADHD but the reality is that as an adult it's almost impossible to manage your environment and lifestyle all the time. I can't demand a shopping centre or supermarket not be busy or too bright and over stimulating and I can't constantly demand my employer change things just to suit me.

While lifestyle changes and environment changes help I think the people who suggest it sometimes forget that it's just not practical to have that level of control and that pushing for it can in my experience make you public enemy No1