To let my niece stay when she refuses to see her mum?

[ShadowShapes]

My sister has 2 children, my niece is 20 and my nephew is only 10 months, so a huge age gap. They have different fathers.

My niece is at university and since my sister had the baby, my niece has refused to spend holidays at home, preferring to stay in her uni city with friends. My sister isn’t happy with this but has had to accept it. My niece has told her that she doesn’t want anything to do with her or the baby. She thinks her mum is mad for having another child. My sister and partner have been together for 5 years and he moved in when my niece was 17. My niece got on ok with him but didn’t like him living with them.

My niece planned to stay in her uni city for summer but asked if she can spend the summer with us a couple of weeks ago. I said she could but that she should tell her mum. She did and my sister said we shouldn’t let her stay with us and we will make things worse.

My niece came to us last week and my sister is angry. I said that I am being neutral but that I will speak to my niece about how she’s feeling and try to help them sort out their relationship. My sister thinks I should tell her that she can’t stay with us but I’ve said she will always be welcome here. My niece is such a nice person but she is adamant she wants nothing to do with her mum, her partner or the new baby.

I feel really in the middle but my niece is still really young and I wasn’t going to turn her away. I’ve tried to put myself in my sisters shoes but it’s difficult as I can’t imagine having another child now and how my children would feel about that.

I’m going to let her stay but going forward what would you do? I’ve suggested to my niece that her mum comes for a coffee or to meet for a walk with or without the baby to try to sort things out but my niece isn’t interested. She just seems to be getting on with her life and seems happy without her mum in it. She helps around the house, gets on well with my children who are also home from uni, goes out with friends and is working. It’s like she has just wiped her mum out of her life, They had a good relationship until her mums partner moved in. She says she feels her mum put him first and although her partner is ok, she didn’t like living with another person.

Such a weird interpretation. I would assume that the Niece has been made to feel like an extra in the life of the main characters—her mother, new man, snd blessed event baby. She isn’t refusing to share her mother’s attention she just realized she was going to be reduced to quasi mother’s helper and free babysitting at the same time as she was displaced financially and in terms of housing.

Who says that she has to gratefully accept demotion to second class status in her mother’s new household? The lines have been clearly drawn that the new man’s needs and wants will take priority over niece’s and that his baby will receive all financial support and parental attention.

Why should she stick around for that?

Why? What strange romance of blood is this? If I were the niece i would be refusing to come back to meet the baby because its a very fraught situation and will allow mother and stepfather to browbeat her and continue to insist that she must simultaneously act like an adult (live independently, support herself, not need attention) snd act like a child under their control.

Baby may not be a blood half sibling, may be a donor egg given her mum is older and needed ivf.

Who on earth is saying the sister is evil @saraclara? She hasn’t dealt with things well and she’s reaping the consequences now but she’s hardly evil. Hyperbole isn’t helpful.

I'd say she brought the pain on herself....

explain please?

nailed it

You are not unreasonable.

It blows my mind how many people believe kids and teens should just get over having a grown adult they barely know moved into their home against their will and call them spoilt etc. cos the grown up "deserves to be happy too".

Big fat no from me. (And I lived with my stepdad from 12) But I had got to know him and like him before that happened and never was there a pint I would have felt uncomfortable home alone with him.

I agree with all of this.

I think my sister has got to admit that she has done things wrong from when she met her partner and to apologise for all of that if there is to be any improvement in their relationship. At the moment, she doesn’t accept that she did anything wrong. My niece says that it won’t make a difference to her whether she apologises or not though and that she is done with her mum.

My husband and I sat down with her again today and spoke to her about seeing her mum and the baby but she isn’t interested. She says she will never see the baby as her brother. We explained that we would still be seeing my sister, partner and baby if my sister allowed that and she said she understands that and doesn’t expect us to take sides. We did assure her that she isn’t wrong for being upset about how her mum has dealt with it, but that we want to keep the door open as she is young and may change her mind in the future. I said that sometimes people get things wrong and for whatever reason can’t see it at the time. She said what her mum has done isn’t forgivable. She told us that she has had counselling through university and has made peace with not having her mum in her life. We offered to pay for more counselling if she needs it but she said she doesn’t feel she does.

We have agreed that we won’t bring it up again unless she wants to talk about it and are now going to concentrate on just being there for her. She seems genuinely happy and wants to just get on with her life.

My husband thinks this will potentially end my relationship with my sister but we both agree that being there for our niece is more important.

That’s the frustrating thing, I think of my sister and taken things more slowly, then possibly none of this would have happened. She rushed it all.

Just rewatched a TV show where the mum is pregnant again when her older daughter is not much under 20-at first she freaks out, but then she apologises to her mum and admits she was being selfish.
Ridiculous your niece behaving like this, unless she feels her mum and the partner are responsible for her dad not being part of her life-I don't think you really explained that or mentioned him?

Gosh, or was quite odd for me to read this. I'm in a vaguely similar situation and have told my lovely niece that she is always welcome here no matter what. My sister has over the years refused to see the problem she was creating and refused to acknowledge how she forced a new strange man into the home and lives of her children when what they needed was stability and consistency. And DN has no time with her mum alone anymore, he is always there. My sympathy is with the niece.

Where is DD's Dad in all of this OP? Of course its lovely that you have openned your home to her, but if she cant live with her Mum, how about her Dad? Sorry if I have missed this.

Her dad is in her life but my sister moved away from him when they split up. My niece saw him at weekends and school holidays when she was younger. Her dad lives in a very quiet place and my niece finds it too quiet to spend more than a few days there now she’s older. She has a bedroom at his house and her dad would be happy for her to live with him. He supports her financially with university and she messages him on WhatsApp most days and they speak regularly. He is a decent dad to her. When my niece told him she was staying with us, he contacted us to say that he doesn’t want to overstep but that he is here if we need anything and he appreciates us having her to stay.

I'm so glad you and your family are there for your niece. Please know that you make a difference.

You dont actually know any of what uou are saying is true. Only the niece and her mother know what went really went on in the lead up to this.

In the real world, people don’t pretend it’s socially normal to act as though your own half-sibling has as much to do with you as a stranger’s baby off the street. That’s not to say that the niece needs to have a close relationship with her younger sibling, but acting like there’s no reason for her to have anything to do with this child is the sort of weird belief that pops up on this site from time to time and is vanishingly rare offline.

To recap - your niece responded normally to a strange man being forced into her life when she was a young teenager. As I said earlier, a chimpanzee could have predicted her response. It's standard, normal and could have absolutely been lessened or avoided if her mother had just waited. Leaving it until she went to uni would have made everyone far happier.

But mother wanted it so mother did it.

She doesn't seem to even question why her daughter loathes this man. There could be very, very good reasons. He might be an absolute shit to her when OP is not around, he might have tried sexual advances, or it could just be that her mother ditched her daughter in his favour and she reacted in a predictable way to feeling unloved and displaced in her own home by her own mother.

The daughter would have come round eventually if her mother wasn't trying to vindictively punish her into compliance, strip her daughter of a safe, reliable relative's care, and ram a baby she's not interested in down her gullet.

OPs sister's attempt to coerce and abuse her daughter into compliance, the fact that she'd be happy if she had nowhere else to go, instead of being grateful her sister is a safe haven and a point of contact tells us all we need to know.

The fixation on forcing a teenager to spend time with a baby draws a natural conclusion - mother was planning on free babysitting and is angry that this will not be happening.

Basically, the mother is a selfish fool who wants compliance, regardless of her daughter's feelings.

She cannot win a battle of power - because she's lost her power over her daughter now and she's headed the right way to lose her daughter forever.

Moving forward, her only hope is to shut her trap and ask politely for updates from her sister. She can try dropping by to see her daughter alone with no baby or man in tow from time to time and keeping the lines of communication open. She must not, of course, issue any further commands or attempt to shackle the niece to the baby or the partner.

OPs sister will just have to accept that there will be no relationship between her daughter and these other people for a while, until OPs sister can repair some of the damage she has caused by forcing a strange man into her daughter's life and making her feel unloved, unwanted and displaced. She can do this by giving her daughter love, care and consideration with no strings attached. It will take time.

However, the reality is that the OPs sister will almost certainly keep issuing commands, trying to throw her weight around, demanding compliance - and lose her daughter altogether.

At least the niece has a safe haven with her aunt, it's vital she has somewhere safe to stay and go, she is still young and needs to know someone has got her back - even though her mother does not.

“She said what her mum has done isn’t forgivable” – for fuck’s sake. That’s what you say when your mother shot up heroin and forgot to feed you for three days, or accused you of “trying to ruin this family” when you told her you were molested by a relative. Not when your mother was less than prudent with the timing of moving in her new partner and later – shock, gasp – decided to have a second child.

I think your niece has some legitimate grievances here, but the way she’s overstating this situation lacks a sense of proportion and perspective.

Actually, it's incredibly common. Mumsnetters seem to believe life is a daytime movie starring Sally Fields. In real life, however, siblings have nothing to do with one another all the time, for all sorts of reasons, and feel no bond or care for one another.

People might consider that sad, but it's very common for siblings - even siblings who grew up together - to become estranged. It's often no big deal, no big falling out, just disinterest and no real relevance to their life.

And in this case the baby is decades younger than the young woman who wants nothing to do with it (for obvious reasons, she feels unloved and displaced). OPs mother has pretty much destroyed any chance of a relationship by trying to force one. The only relationship they'd ever had naturally had would have been a distant one, they're decades apart in age.

It's very normal for a young woman of the niece's age to want nothing to do with babies. Some feel differently, but many just can't be bothered with babies. I couldn't abide babies or young children when I was a teenager or young woman - I found them an absolute nuisance at best and always asked (politely and discreetly) not to be seated near them when travelling or dining.

That changed as I reached my late 20s, I ended up working with children for years and had two of my own who are my heart's delight.

But I'd never have wanted anything to do with a baby at the niece's age. I was polite around people with babies and mainly avoided them - just like OPs niece likely would have been if her mother hadn't messed up so badly.

The girl would likely have come round to the occasional visit and a "cute baby" comment or two without her mother's attempts to coerce her - but that's no longer on the table. But the fantasy that they'd have had a relationship is unlikely given the massive age gap.

And now I'd be absolutely surprised if the daughter and the baby had any relationship at all beyond saying hi from time to time if they bump into one another at a family gathering years from now - assuming the daughter attends any family gatherings into the future.

And this was well stated and worth listening to:

@poohbearhunny "I say this as someone who has a 22 yr age gap with their younger sibling after their parent met a shiny new partner. I get it. You don’t want to spend your twenties cooing over a baby that you’re supposed to be besotted over, it’s meant to be a time for fun and living. It’s also really hard that everything is completely taken over by this new baby and the new partner who has a lot of control over what was once yours. My situation sounds very similar to your niece and I totally get her feelings here and why she doesn’t want to be involved. In particular, whenever I saw my parent and the new baby, I was effectively expected to babysit so they could have space or fun on their own, everything in the house revolved around that. Perhaps it’s similar for her? It’s also really hard because what exactly do a 20 year old and a baby have in common? If she doesn’t want to play baby games etc then what is she to do?"

Great insight here.

It’s not common to refuse to see your infant half-sibling even one time.

”But the fantasy that they'd have had a relationship is unlikely given the massive age gap” – as I said, that’s not to say that the niece needs to have a close relationship with her younger sibling.

Yes, that is it. Your DS has not treated her DD well at all. I’d be telling my sister a few home truths if I were you.

Most people will say your niece shouldn't cut her Mum out of her life, but if I were her I would do the same. My Mother remarried and living with them was very awkward- the partner tried to use influence like a father which just wasn't appropriate.
Also if my Mother had had a child when I was at uni she would want me home as much a possible as a free babysitter- i suspect your niece fears the same thing. How are you supposed to get a good night's sleep with a baby in the house, if you are 20 and childless you have a right to expect crying free nights.
Clearly your sister is quite manipulative trying to reduce your niece's choices by putting pressure on you not to let her stay, well done for supporting your niece.

I am very glad you are doing the right thing by your niece. Your sister sounds bullheaded and blind to reality. That's a real pity, but you stripping your niece of a safe, loving relative and place to stay would make things far worse, not better.

If your sister can ever dig down and uncover even the tiniest insight into what she has done, your continued relationship with her daughter could be a bridge to build on.

An apology from your sister for rushing things, forcing a strange man into her daughter's home and not seeing how desperately distressed her daughter felt would go a long way but is unlikely I suppose. Hopefully she can at least have the insight to visit her daughter at your home with no baby or partner in tow and offer her some unconditional attention and love.

But if things go the way I think they will, I am glad your niece has you and your husband as loving family members.

As for the relationship with the baby - obviously that's not going to happen. It probably never would have, it's the rare teenager who wants anything to do with an infant half sibling. She's probably well aware she's being sized up as a potential resource, and honestly babies just aren't interesting when you're young and have your whole life ahead of you. Your sister will just have to figure out a different baby sitter.

I'd say it's very common when your mother forced a strange man into your home when you were aged 15, ignored your objections, put all her financial resources for years into getting pregnant with him, doesn't help with your university finances at all and is now trying to ram the baby into your life despite your lack of interest.

Her mother has completely centered the new baby - normal enough for a new parent. But also spent years overlooking her daughter's feelings and rushed a new man into her home aged 15. The rejected child (which is precisely how the niece feels) has decided to completely remove them all from her life - perfectly normal and predictable reaction to this scenario.

It's a very normal reaction to want nothing to do with this attempted coercive control and reject the baby entirely, anyone with the tiniest bit of insight into how relationships work could have predicted this.