AIBU to feel at a loss with my son's behaviour?

[Django1988]

I have a 5 year old boy who has been a handful since 18 months old. He has a sister 2 years older.

He constantly craves attention and will do anything to get it. Our main issue is that he’s horrible to other kids, he pushes, takes their things, spits at them, doesn’t let them go down the slide at parks, throws their things, winds them up on purpose etc this can be my friends kids or strangers.

He will wind us up as a family, it could be 8am and we are already fed up. It could be hitting us, kicking, grabbing our faces, pulling hair, covering our eyes so we can’t see the tv and won’t stop after being asked repeatedly. If we move away he will follow.

I’ve just been to the park with 2 friends and their 4 kids. He upset 4/5 of the kids. He pushed one kid and he fell in to another, he took a toy off 2 of the girls and ran away with it then threw it in to a bush, he jumped on top of one of the other girls and wouldn’t get off when she we shouting and another girl was trying to pull him off. He was leaning against my friends tent and she asked him not to, he carried on doing it until she had to get firm with him and then I had to intervene (I was taking my daughter to the toilet at the time) I told him every time he was unkind to his friends I would throw away one of his treats in his lunch box, I ended up throwing 2 away. He then pulled everything about of the bin (this was my bad, he is motivated by food and I didn’t know what else to do at the time, I was at my wits end) I took him home and left his sister there with my friend. It won’t teach him though, we always have words before we go anywhere, he knows if he’s unkind to anyone we will come home and we always do. I don’t know what else I can do. I don’t think it’s fair on other kids and people to have their day ruined by my child who can’t play nicely. I’ve even caught him jumping on a baby at a soft play, again we came home.

He just wants to wind everyone up and he’s spiteful at times. There isn’t a trigger as far as I can see. He was upset the other day as my daughter and my friends kids didn’t want to play with him because he’s mean and honestly, I didn’t know what to tell him, he is mean. But at the same time I don’t want him to be excluded.

He’s horrible to animals, he will throw sticks or stones at dogs, cats, ducks etc. We looked after my friend’s kittens for a week in February and it was pure hell. He wouldn’t leave them alone, he’d pull their tails, drag them by their legs, a lot of the time he would just want to cuddle them but wouldn’t stop when I said they had had enough. I couldn’t wait for them to go home.

He has friends at school luckily and there’s been a few incidents where he has been rough or grabbed their faces/squeezed them etc but he is getting a lot better and didn’t have any incidents last term. He’s doing well at school academically and meeting all his targets, he has patience and is great at persevering with things. He also loves a cuddle and can be very loving at times, but a cuddle nearly always ends up in someone being hurt/irritated.

We have sent 2 referrals for an EHCP at school as they think he may have Autism/ADHD. These have both been rejected. We are putting a third one in, in November time and he has been referred to speech and language for social interaction/communication, he is already under SALT for speech sounds. Sometimes I can see that he may be neurodivergent but other days I can’t.

We have done 2 parenting courses, a 4 week one and a 10 week one. Both were brilliant and gave us some great strategies which we use. One of them is 10 minutes play every day to make sure he has enough attention. We do a marble jar, positive reinforcements, praise for being/praise for doing, we try not to use negative language like no, stop etc and say hands are not for hitting etc

We’ve tried time out (though the parenting courses advise against this)
We take his Yoto player away, say no to pudding (I know we shouldn’t but I don’t know what else to try)

I can handle him at home as it’s just us he’s terrorising but I feel like every time I go anywhere with him he’s always unkind, my heart sinks when I see other kids coming to the park.

I know he’s looking for a connection or dopamine hit, I just wish we could find a way to help him get this in a different way. It’s the start of the summer holidays and I’ve already been in tears.

Apologies this ended up longer than I intended!

If anyone got this far and has any advice, I’d really appreciate it.

Attending parenting classes? The parents are not the problem, the child is! The child needs to attend a Borstal or something else, probably.

I have a child (now adult) who has autism and adhd.

i can confirm smacking doesn’t work she just started wanting to smack everyone who didn’t do what she wanted.

(logic - if I Don’t do what mum says she smacks me. Therefore the correct way to make someone do something is smack them when they don’t)

can’t argue with the logic.

she continued to punish people who annoyed her right into her teens.

Take him home after the first instance of bad behaviour. Do it every time and he will learn. He does it because he enjoys it and wants to see how far he can push you. Positive reinforcement is all very well but it’s not working for your son.

we try not to use negative language like no, stop etc and say hands are not for hitting etc

That's your problem, right there. Sometimes you need to raise your voice and say a very firm 'Stop that right now'. None of this 'gentle hands' bollocks, it clearly isn't working.

Sounds a lot like my DS at that age. He did well academically and school wouldn't entertain an EHCP for this reason. SALT got involved tho and came up with some coping strategies for the teachers. He was violent and disruptive in class. Always in trouble for something in junior and high school.
I'm going back around 10 yrs but I had to go to his Dr to get a referral for an assessment. I clearly remember sitting in front of the Dr, listing all the negative behaviour and showing the bruises on my arms. DS sat there like an angel until the Dr leaned forward and asked him his name. He got down on all fours, cocked his leg like a dog, started barking and crawling under chairs. We got our referral! At 5yrs old and on our first meeting the the child phycologist - he was diagnosed with Aspergers/ASD. It opened the gateway to lots of support. I also read up on everything I could get my hands on and attended work-shops.
My DS would get hyper/manic and the only way to stop him hurting anyone etc was to hold him tight until he calmed down. I stopped giving two figs to the stares and comments. You learn to ignore them.
Pick your battles - if he's not hurting or disturbing anyone - let him do what he wants, even if that's sitting under the dining table to eat at home or out.
I also found being honest with him did a lot of good. E.g. 'why didn't they invite me to their party?' 'Because you push and hit them, don't share toys'. I was quite blunt at times.
My DS is now a teen and is a wonderful lad, so much so that people comment on it and can't believe he has ASD. He can regulate his emotions so much better. As his DM, I know ASD hasn't simply gone away, there are still signs and things he struggles with which others don't see. All the things I thought wouldn't be possible, now are - college, p/t job, driving, g/f etc. Yes it's a long road and you sometimes feel you're fighting the system/other people all the time but in the end it's all worth it.

Fair point - it wasn’t my first suggestion and if you read my post it also said the thing that must not be said even before the Malaysian grandma post!

Honest question - why does he need an ehcp if he is doing well in school and there hasn't been hardly any incidents?

I have a lot of empathy for you op and could have written this post myself. My eldest was very similar and my second child was easy and well behaved. It’s not always the parenting!
I was given a lot of ‘advice’ about how to get my ds under control, smack him was my parents advice and I read many books and attended many parenting courses. Nothing worked. He saw various doctors and school were baffled with his wild behaviour as he could also be lovely at times.
At age 6 we finally got a referral to the community paediatrician and he was diagnosed with ADHD and recommended to try medication. It helped hugely.
He was rough with animals too at age 5 and we had to rehome our cat for her own safety. Fast forward 10 years and he’s caring, gentle and adores animals. He’s great with his baby cousins and is very charming. He was also diagnosed with ASD and PDA.
The medication saved us and helped his sister too as he was very unpredictable with her.
Try to get help from professionals is my advice. A private educational psychologist report might be worth considering if you can’t make progress with the NHS.
Wishing you all the best.

TBH, I think this book is geared more for children of primary school age or younger. There are probably things which would be relevant for teenagers but some of the advice and particularly the suggested wording is going to be a bit patronising for a teen.

The thing I found most helpful about this book is that it breaks things down really far so you don't miss any part of the advice. Unfortunately it does have the effect of making the advice sound completely obvious, but when I did slow down and follow it step by step, I realised that I was making a lot of the mistakes the book assumes that you might be making, even though when I read it as advice I thought "Obviously!! Obviously I would not do that" when I was focused on that one particular step, I noticed over the next day or so that I inevitably did. So it was quite helpful to have things pointed out, but I probably only noticed this because I actually followed it. If I had just read the book and not implemented the advice then I probably would have dismissed it as too basic.

Just adding one more thing for OP. When a child is desperate for attention, they often misbehave because they are then rewarded with attention. Even if you are telling him off, or it's negative - to a young child that is still giving them what they want.

So if he is misbehaving, don't engage. A simple "that's not allowed" and either remove him, give him a time out, or take away whatever he is using/messing around with. Children who act up for attention absolutely hate being ignored. So you could try this whenever you see bad behaviour from him. Redirect, then ignore. Once he's behaving well - no matter how small - praise and give rewards. Sitting nicely, being kind, being respectful, not shouting, and so on. Lots of praise and attention. He'll very quickly learn that to get your attention, he needs to display those positive behaviours. Works very well imo (with neurotypical children more so than neurodivergent). Give it a try, and remember, consistency is key.

Thank you for all of your comments and advice! There’s been a lot to get through but I’ll try and answer everyone’s points.

Apologies, I was so angry when I wrote the post I’d forgotten to say it’s an NDP he has been referred for by his school and my understanding is that they can get an EHCP for him if accepted I think? They want to wait till the middle of year 1 to put it in again so that he is closer to age 6. The behaviour with animals will be included in this as it happened after we got the second rejection.

His teacher has given me social stories to work through with him, when we tried he didn’t want to engage and ripped it up but will keep trying.

I could try making him sit with me instead of taking him home straight away, it would be better for my daughter as it isn’t fair to take her home all the time.

I hadn’t considered a psychologist but yes it’s definitely worth looking in to.

The 10 minutes play is one on one time with the children whereas other times we play it’s usually together as a family. We don’t set a timer so it’s usually slightly longer. Although in the parenting course they said you can set a timer if you wanted to. Apparently research suggests that’s all kids need! We read with them before bed so they probably get half an hour a day one on one with a parent. They go to wraparound care and clubs like swimming/brownies in the week so it’s hard to spend lots of time with them. We play with them a lot more at the weekend.

You’re right that punishments are not working and they never have with him. We always seem to slip back in to bad habits as the constant positive reinforcements can be exhausting. I know this is what he needs though as it has worked in the past. When we had just finished the parenting course and we were armed with the knowledge and strategies and enthusiastic about it, it was the best he’s ever been.

It is always at parks or parties, he’s absolutely fine in national trust type places where he can run free.

After kicking off about having to go home he does return back to normal and is usually fine.

We do use firm voices with him, I don’t do complete gentle parenting, it doesn’t work with him. I was focusing on the fact we try not to use negative language as it brings a negative response.

Any threats with food or Yoto player usually don’t work, like a pp said around sweets- we will say if you do that again there’s no Yoto player tonight, he will say noooo! But then do the same thing again and have a meltdown when we take it away.

I don’t think he knows how to play in groups but he can play nicely with his sister. Sometimes it ends in tears though but that can be said for a lot of siblings. I think smaller groups would be better for him which I hadn’t realised until making this most and seeing the responses.

No one has mentioned PDA, I’ve looked in to this and I don’t think he has it.

To add to this, he has a very high pain threshold, he could fall and cut his leg, blood would be dripping down and he would just get up and carry on and wouldn’t tell anyone. When he was 4 his tooth fell out in school and he just cracked on and no one noticed until wraparound care. It wasn’t wobbly or ready to come out, the dentist said he must have banged his mouth and caused the tooth to slowly fall out.

I will definitely look in to the books recommended thank you!

The high pain threshold really stands out - he doesn't sound like he has any concept of causing others pain because for him it's just not a thing. Abstract concepts are hard at the best of times but pain is such a tricky one to explain if he doesn't have that natural feeling to something that should be a painful stimuli. I think you might need to phrase it differently - rather than hitting hurts for instance, maybe hitting means we have to stop playing because X is feeling sad and needs time to feel better so we can't play now.

I’d say you need to start being a bit more harsh and using the word no etc, i really think more problems are caused by not using no . You want to ensure that his behaviour doesn’t stop your friends inviting you etc it just feel awful when you’re doing everything to be a good parent. Sorry you’re going through this. Has your daughter ever had similar behaviour or different temperament.

Reread what you have written. Your not consistent at all.
expectations of behaviour clearly given before leaving home consequences followed through immediately and every single time

I have AuDHD boys. Rewards and consequences don't work in the same way as they might for NT kids because the impulse control doesn't work in the same way. They act before thinking so there's no time for them to remember the reward/consequence before acting.

A better approach is to find ways of meeting the dopamine seeking that are less harmful. Any exercise, but we found trampolines, biking etc best. Rough and tumble play. Spots with a 'risk element' e.g. climbing, gymnastics, horse riding etc. Also crunchy or spicy food can be great for some kids. When triggered having ideas for how to take out that energy e.g. punch a pillow, put on music and dance, run around etc. Plus lots of 1:1 time. (And if it is ADHD then meds are brilliant).

Praise whenever things are going well. Try to avoid constant criticism as that feeds into the cycle of poor behaviour.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sent a referral for an EHCP" but are you aware you can make a parental request for one to your LA directly? IPSEA have a template letter you can use on their website. You can then appeal if they refuse to assess.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5484488-ehcp-support-thread-no-6?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Can you get a GP appointment to be referred for assessment for autism and adhd? Either to CAMHS or however the pathway works in your area? Diagnosis isn't the end of the matter but will help with getting support.

Punishment doesn't work very well with ND kids. They can't make the connection.

PS
Mean what you say.
You've had some good advice here about parenting ND children.
Meds are great for adhd.

Yes it is - I did a level criminology I remember them saying about this.
but there is chance to change these behaviours with the right help and guidance but I don’t think MN is the answer

@Django1988 refer yourself to social services and be really honest with them and say you’re concerned for your other child’s safety - hopefully they will support as they have a duty of care to protect all children

My friend had a similar issue. They tried everything being strict, punishing, lenient etc.and the little one started calming down naturally around 7-8 years old. He is still very active but at least stopped hitting everyone and causing issues. Like yours he has friends at school which is good and he is naturally very bright. Be patient, he will get there.

He sounds exactly like my nephew at that age. ADHD. He is 12 and a lovely boy now but honestly back then I used to worry he might be a psychopath. I babysat him once when he was about 3 and he kept biting my kid and kicking my dog with a big smile on his face. I had them behind me protecting them while he ran around trashing the place. You wouldn't believe it if you met him now.

This sounds really difficult. Personally though if I knew my child was likely to hit other children at the park I wouldn’t take him there as it’s not fair on the other kids. I know it’s hard, especially when you have more than one child. Would you be better off going to woods / the beach / fields where this is less likely to happen?

Well, that's what you do. Or you leave him at home (you'd need to organise a babysitter for him). You need to follow through with punishments quickly & sharply.

Fair point, but obviously not working for this mom