AIBU to feel at a loss with my son's behaviour?

[Django1988]

I have a 5 year old boy who has been a handful since 18 months old. He has a sister 2 years older.

He constantly craves attention and will do anything to get it. Our main issue is that he’s horrible to other kids, he pushes, takes their things, spits at them, doesn’t let them go down the slide at parks, throws their things, winds them up on purpose etc this can be my friends kids or strangers.

He will wind us up as a family, it could be 8am and we are already fed up. It could be hitting us, kicking, grabbing our faces, pulling hair, covering our eyes so we can’t see the tv and won’t stop after being asked repeatedly. If we move away he will follow.

I’ve just been to the park with 2 friends and their 4 kids. He upset 4/5 of the kids. He pushed one kid and he fell in to another, he took a toy off 2 of the girls and ran away with it then threw it in to a bush, he jumped on top of one of the other girls and wouldn’t get off when she we shouting and another girl was trying to pull him off. He was leaning against my friends tent and she asked him not to, he carried on doing it until she had to get firm with him and then I had to intervene (I was taking my daughter to the toilet at the time) I told him every time he was unkind to his friends I would throw away one of his treats in his lunch box, I ended up throwing 2 away. He then pulled everything about of the bin (this was my bad, he is motivated by food and I didn’t know what else to do at the time, I was at my wits end) I took him home and left his sister there with my friend. It won’t teach him though, we always have words before we go anywhere, he knows if he’s unkind to anyone we will come home and we always do. I don’t know what else I can do. I don’t think it’s fair on other kids and people to have their day ruined by my child who can’t play nicely. I’ve even caught him jumping on a baby at a soft play, again we came home.

He just wants to wind everyone up and he’s spiteful at times. There isn’t a trigger as far as I can see. He was upset the other day as my daughter and my friends kids didn’t want to play with him because he’s mean and honestly, I didn’t know what to tell him, he is mean. But at the same time I don’t want him to be excluded.

He’s horrible to animals, he will throw sticks or stones at dogs, cats, ducks etc. We looked after my friend’s kittens for a week in February and it was pure hell. He wouldn’t leave them alone, he’d pull their tails, drag them by their legs, a lot of the time he would just want to cuddle them but wouldn’t stop when I said they had had enough. I couldn’t wait for them to go home.

He has friends at school luckily and there’s been a few incidents where he has been rough or grabbed their faces/squeezed them etc but he is getting a lot better and didn’t have any incidents last term. He’s doing well at school academically and meeting all his targets, he has patience and is great at persevering with things. He also loves a cuddle and can be very loving at times, but a cuddle nearly always ends up in someone being hurt/irritated.

We have sent 2 referrals for an EHCP at school as they think he may have Autism/ADHD. These have both been rejected. We are putting a third one in, in November time and he has been referred to speech and language for social interaction/communication, he is already under SALT for speech sounds. Sometimes I can see that he may be neurodivergent but other days I can’t.

We have done 2 parenting courses, a 4 week one and a 10 week one. Both were brilliant and gave us some great strategies which we use. One of them is 10 minutes play every day to make sure he has enough attention. We do a marble jar, positive reinforcements, praise for being/praise for doing, we try not to use negative language like no, stop etc and say hands are not for hitting etc

We’ve tried time out (though the parenting courses advise against this)
We take his Yoto player away, say no to pudding (I know we shouldn’t but I don’t know what else to try)

I can handle him at home as it’s just us he’s terrorising but I feel like every time I go anywhere with him he’s always unkind, my heart sinks when I see other kids coming to the park.

I know he’s looking for a connection or dopamine hit, I just wish we could find a way to help him get this in a different way. It’s the start of the summer holidays and I’ve already been in tears.

Apologies this ended up longer than I intended!

If anyone got this far and has any advice, I’d really appreciate it.

Isn’t harming animals in childhood a trait in psychopaths and serial killers? I’m sure I’ve read before it is, this is so alarming.

It doesn’t sound like he’s torturing the animals though, it sounds more like he’s just unaware they’re living creatures with their own feelings and he doesn’t have the empathy yet that other children of his age would normally have - this could be explained by neurodivergence and hopefully he’ll catch up with his peers.

Edited: not saying his behaviour is in any way acceptable - it isn’t, and of course he should be kept away from animals so they’re safe.

You're being too accommodating nowhere near firm enough with him. Give him one warning (literally just one) and if he misbehaved again, immediately remove him.

I would also recommend much shorter park trips, say 10-15 mins as he clearly struggles to regulate himself.

More rewards for good behaviour as well (star chart or similar - many people hate them but they're highly effective and you need all the strategies you can get imo)

Firm reaponse, much clearer boundaries, no second chances. Stand firm, don't cave because he doesn't listen initially. Might take a week or two for the new rules to sink in, but he WILL get it. Good luck!

NOT HELPFUL!

This is a little 5 year old child we're talking about. He's a baby!

And his mum is trying to work out how to help him.

You don't need a label or diagnosis to be the kind of person who just doesn't respond to conventional discipline / ie: punishments. Most people do, but some people don't. And doubling down on this model with kids for whom it doesn't work doesn't make them behave better, it makes them behave worse. The end result is a vicious cycle where an angry kid becomes an angry adult becomes prison fodder.

I'm not talking about gentle parenting nonsense by the way, I'm talking about an alternative proactive structured approach which also happens to work with neurodivergent kids.

Now my son is older we're able to talk about punishments and why he didn't respond when he was little. His sister we'd put on time out she'd never do the thing again. Him? He's now able to explain if (say) he hit someone so I put him in time out he'd be so enraged he'd want to do the thing again worse, harder, more, to teach me a lesson for punishing him.

All I can say is having had a nightmare kid I now have a really nice pre-teen who has passed through his problems but only because I accepted whatever most people do just didn't work for my kid.

This is absolutely brilliant advice.

Your boy sounds just like my sister's son, who does now have an autism diagnosis. He was very rough with animals and children when he was little. He is an adult now and a very nice young man.

I read a really good book called ‘setting limits with your strong willed child’

I would HIGHLY recommend this book.

You can take all the advice in the world but nobody will understand this unless you have been through it.

After reading this book I would say, ‘ if you do x here, we are leaving’ and I would leave the second he did it. Even though I had other children and they all suffered, I walked out and went home.

I remember going into a toy shop and standing at the door and saying ‘if you run off on me in here, I will catch you and we will leave. You will be getting nothing and I mean it’ I remember the security guard looking at me like I was Cruella DeVille. But I did it and I had to do or it would have only gotten worse.

It did turn out that he had additional
needs and was getting completely overwhelmed in these situations and wasn’t able to cope. He wasn’t just being ‘bold’.

I wish you all the very best and I would definitely read that book if you can find it. All the best x x

I really, really feel for you as one of my children was always difficult although she didn’t hurt the other children. She simply wouldn’t do a thing we said.

I think he will only learn when you identify the one thing that he responds to and use it consistently.

I would try: We are going for a playdate with X and Y. You must play nicely. The first time you hurt someone, we will go straight home. And do it. Consistently, every time. Warn the other parents prior.

Or - same script, and as soon as he hurts a child the treat gets taken away. He hurts someone again, you show the treat going. Third transgression is home time.

Also remember your child is 5. Presumably you physically manhandled him away from the bin? I would introduce some of that. Obviously we don’t still smack children (I bet you that would fix him immediately because he wouldn’t hurt the ther kids if he knew he’d then be hurt) but you are stronger than them and you can use that to show you are in charge. “COME AWAY FROM THAT BIN RIGHT NOW OR I SHALL TAKE YOU AWAY FROM IT MYSELF” in your loudest and most authoritative voice. Fear works - and you should use it on him because he is hurting others and needs to learn not to. We were all scared of our parents growing up, we are all ok!

Our daughter also responded to food - the threat of it being removed. So we did Saturday Sweets - she’d get five sweets a week to eat after lunch on Saturday, (then clean her teeth!) In theory she could earn extra sweets by being good/responding to asks etc. She wasn’t generally interested in this. But what worked was “If you do that again, you’ll lose a sweet.” And I was consistent about taking them
away.

It worked every time and was the only thing that ever worked.

By the sounds of it he doesn't know how to play nicely with other kids OP, he literally doesn't know. When you're autistic/ADHD the rules of playing with other kids aren't necessarily apparent to you, they may need to be explained clearly and be reminded over and over. Come down hard by immediately removing him though if someone is hit or hurt because it's really important he learns quickly that that is not ok. If you only stay 5 minutes then so be it. Why don't you say no to him? Does he have a PDA profile? If so then that makes sense, otherwise he really, really needs to know 'no' so he knows what's acceptable and what isn't. But he needs to also have it explained why it's not ok because even if it's obvious to you it might not be to him. Just punishing him is not going to change him though because it's not teaching him anything.

He probably desperately wants to play with these kids but it sounds to me like he has no idea what that involves. 10 minutes of you playing with him a day is frankly a joke though, did the course really say that? I would say an hour a day at least, this is a child with a lot to learn.

So I really recommend that you spend lots of time at home teaching him how to play by playing games with him. Start by playing his way as much as possible - what's his idea of a fun game? Then start teaching him fun games that other kids like. Play chase, play football, play kids board games and card games, play pretend games, play with his cars, play with playdough and teach him how to play nicely with it with you. Teaching the very basics of what's involved in playing the games as well as about taking turns, not snatching, losing graciously - obviously this isn't going to happen overnight and will be a long, ongoing process.

The same goes for with the animals you need to specifically teach him very clearly, remind him and watch him like a hawk - same with soft play. You may need to accept that he just can't cope right now with too many people or places that are too over stimulating and instead have a clear routine with lots of time to get out energy on his own in the woods or a quiet park for example as well as lots of time to decompress.

Whatever it is that he is good at persevering at, lean into that. Whatever he is persevering at it likely what he is really into. If it's doing maths then get him maths work books to do, if it's taking things apart then give him things he can take apart, whatever it is really make the most of it because it might end up being a career for him.

If he's autistic then he may not care to be externally rewarded because his motivation may all be internal. That was the case with DS - in which case star charts and rewards won't really get you anywhere. If the parenting courses you've done are for NT kids then don't assume everything will work with your kid.

DS (ASD) went through a very nasty phase of tripping children over at this age. It was horrible and I was worried he was going to grow up to be a sociopath. I came down hard on it and it stopped thankfully He's not a sociopath now, he's a software engineer - but he had a lot of time, effort and support put into him. The more you put in, I promise the more you will get out. Staying clear, calm and consistent is key.

That's what I thought. Perhaps he needs more time one to one.

When you're autistic/ADHD the rules of playing with other kids aren't necessarily apparent to you, they may need to be explained clearly and be reminded over and over.

The rules of how you play games are not obvious TO ANYONE. Parents should always be sitting down and plaing simple games with their kids to teach turn taking, fairness and just how to have fun!

You’re missing the point here. There are certain social skills that most kids pick up naturally. Turn taking in conversation, how to introduce yourself, how to get involved in a game. These skills are perceived from watching the world from the earliest stages of infancy. Sure, the rules of snakes and ladders or football need explaining but what the poster is referring to is much more foundational. For example, most neurotypical kids will have a pattern that works for them with how to get involved in a game if they feel left out. They might introduce themselves, or, say, catch the ball and pass it on to involve themselves. Most autistic kids just don’t have these social skills and many often will resort to lashing out as the easiest way to get the attention of the group.

Kind hands worked with DS when he seemed compelled to slap every child he saw. I was consistent about leaving, he knew the drill - do it once we go outside for five minutes. Do it again we leave immediately. He'd be distraught at leaving as well, and if I asked him if he knew why we'd left and he'd say why.

Kind hands worked though.

Every child is different.

DS is also a child who's never responded well to punishments. Time out never worked because he would never cooperate, I'd have to keep enforcing it which I felt defeated the object as it just meant lots of attention. He's autistic, and the only thing that had an impact was taking things associated with his special interest away, and that just tended to trigger a meltdown. Incentives didn't work either and would lead to a meltdown. Fortunately he can be reasoned with!

The child has not been seen by a professional. OP said the EHCP applications have been refused, which is nothing to do with assessment. They could have been refused as blanket policy in the area (it's not unheard of) or it could be because the child has no diagnosed needs as yet.

OP - you need to find out what the avenue is for assessment in your area. (EHCP is not assessment). It is good he is receiving support with speech and communication.

In general your post describes a lot of reactive techniques, which have their place but IME are of extremely limited use with a child like this. Proactive is everything.

What that means is basically - sit down of an evening (e.g. with your partner) and make a list of the top 3 or 5 issues you're facing at the moment. Either the worst or the most frequent. Doesn't really matter what it is but IME when you have a behaviourally challenging child there will be repeated/predictable issues (even if there is a lot of unpredictability as well).

Then for each of those issues see if you can figure out when/where/who/what tend to be the triggers. Anything which might possibly be feeding in e.g. hunger? boredom? sensory overload?

What can you do to set the child up for success in that situation?

What can you do to set the adult(s) up for success in that situation? Sometimes if you're busy, distracted, stressed etc that can feed in to your reactions when actually the child needs more patience and for you to model calm and firmness. And it also helps for adults to have a really simple, memorable response with very little talking to use in the moment as it helps you avoid slipping into shouting/threatening, lecturing, bribing etc all of which is usually unhelpful.

And always consider what you WANT ie the replacement behaviour you're working towards. And what steps you could take to get there from where you are now. It doesn't always work to go for it all in one go. Sometimes you have to start where the child is and go bit by bit. Don't wait for them to get it nearly all the way right to praise - for many children who struggle with behaviour they will give up. If you feel you're not getting a chance to praise, try praising when your child is 25% towards (or even "in the vague direction of") the thing you want them to do, and if they are immediately moving onto something naughty, try using specific praise e.g. "Daniel, well done for picking up the paper."

Could you control/reduce the environment e.g. if you struggle with his behaviour in shops, sometimes it helps to temporarily avoid bigger shops and busy times, and spend some focused time taking him into smaller shops at quieter times, with a short list and giving him a job of his own to do, in order to give him a good chance of being successful and getting praised so he learns what you want him to do. Then build this up into more of a point where he can cope better with a longer trip or busier environment. Although do bear in mind that if he is autistic, he might have sensory processing issues which cannot be learned away. He might need other supports such as ear defenders or always need to avoid shopping at very busy times.

Picking your top 3-5 issues is good for this because obviously you can't do this constantly for every little thing, it's exhausting. But if you can pick some specific areas to work on, you will often see more consistent results from the proactive strategies than the reactive ones (which is anything you do in the moment like time out, going home, explaining what to do instead etc).

Not consistent you should follow through with what you say or not say it at all. No need for threats just act.

What are you doing to meet your likely ND’s child needs?

Top tip, punishment won’t work or help.

Yes that also jumped out as extremely odd parenting advice. Was he getting less than 10mins one-on-one play before that? Is he in school and wraparound care every single day for so long that there's literally no more time left with parents? How long has it been like that? Would definitely explain some of the attention seeking and attachment issues.

Though fwiw, we have a cousin in the family who displayed borderline sociopathic behaviour aged 3-5. Eventually diagnosed with ADHD and it only improved with medication. No amount of parenting techniques can fix true neurological issues.

This is also really good and none of the advice in it is inappropriate if your child doesn't have ADHD.

https://uk.jkp.com/products/stepbystep-help-for-children-with-adhd

This is exactly what I think. Judicious smacking (controlled and when expected) has its place and because it works almost immediately, it can be the kindest way. Not with an implement and not long and hard though.

We didn’t suffer as much with this sort of behaviour when I was a child - it certainly wasn’t prevalent in “normal” families - because a young child aged 2-3 who hit another child would be firmly smacked and reprimanded. Because noone likes being smacked, it worked quickly for most offenders and by 5 was a much rarer event.

You are doing everything you can. You have attended parenting classes. I hope you get some answers soon

@Django1988 jumping on a baby at the soft play and hurting animals is very concerning and completely not normal. If he was mine I’d be very worried that he is, and I really do hate to say this, a psychopath.

Thank you very much for this. Could you tell me if it is still relevant for young teens?

There is a difference between hurting animals because you’re enjoying their pain and hurting animals because of over enthusiasm and not understanding that if you pull the dogs tail it hurts the dog. Most children understand this by five; it would seem this child doesn’t.

“…and as soon as he hurts a child the treat gets taken away. He hurts someone again, you show the treat going. Third transgression is home time.”

So that’s three children are you allowing to be hit and attacked for the sake of this one child’s social development? 🙄

I’m with the Malaysian grandma technique.