To be sick of politicians using 'fairness' as justification for tax rises?

[Itchthescratch]

Fairness is completely subjective and I notice that this is often shorthand for giving more money to those that contribute the least.

Of course there will always be those that can't contribute much due to factors outside of their control, but we are kidding ourselves if we pretend that there aren't already lots of people that are scraping by doing the bare minimum (sometimes even less) and making completely irresponsible decisions knowing the state will ultimately insulate them from the consequences.

I personally know people that have had lots of children that they can't afford and can't parent properly simply because they wanted to. They are now on an incredible amount of money as the two child cap has been lifted. I know people that have stopped working because they weren't much better off than being on benefits and they couldn't be bothered with the hassle. I know young people that are already planning to stay on disability benefits their whole lives for mental health issues as they want to stay home and game.

Is it really 'fair' to charge the rest of us more to subsidise all of this?

Do I? I find it more bizarre that you don't know anybody like this. In my hometown in particular there are lots of people that have similar lives to this. The stats support this.

This is just untrue. Business owners actually pay twice - business taxes and then personal taxes. Sole traders pay the same. Contractors pay more due to IR35.

it really isn’t true anymore that the self employed at taxed less than salaried employees

Labour is blissful in comparison to the SNP I pay thousands more in taxes then my English counterparts on the same salary. Our taxes are higher and rates go up at much lower thresholds.

We are constantly being told we should pay more and that it's right to do so.
I did the maths and worked out I was better setting up a salary sacrifice private pension pot! I'm not a 6 figure earner either we just have 6 tax bands in Scotland.

As others have said this is incorrect. But also shows why the OECD need to point out the damaging impact of tax hikes so far. Voters are so hooked on tax everyone else more there’s no limit. That lack of insight is causing problems.

Because we need to be realistic. We are in a global economy. How can we complete with countries with lower minimum wages when it comes to exports? Of course you can rely on innovation etc but let's be honest, we aren't really renowned for that as a country. We are going to be in danger of pricing out lots of jobs.

Look at some of the Nordic countries like Final and Sweden as a cautionary tale of how high wages can drive unemployment.

@Mischance but here’s the thing… yes we want a fair society with good services, but there’s a point at which people do not think they are getting value for money - yet are still asked for more.

Your average young person with a student loan can’t afford a house, will struggle to afford kids, no final salary pensions, state pension looking increasingly unlikely etc etc. The rate over £50k with a student loan is 51%, they’ll probably not pay off their loan in the now 40 year term.

So when the government says, actually we need even more money from you to fund current universal pensions / people with loads of kids / whatever other thing people don’t have themselves PLUS actually you are excluded from a load of stuff too because you aren’t deemed needy enough - they are left looking at their very ordinary lifestyle thinking ‘is this really it’.

The tax burden goes up and up for above average earners, the number of net contributors keeps dropping, the number of people reliant on state support grows - where does it end?

You clearly don't believe in the concept of a welfare state, as you don't believe you will ever be in a position to need it.
Your examples may be true (I'm not entirely convinced because people are rarely transperant about what money is coming in), but there are also thousands of people on benefits who desperately need them
You should therefore emigrate to a country which does not have a welfare state, to test your theory- and stop wearying us with your tired and limited argument..

Foreign aid 153 million to a nuclear strong country like pakistan with 170 nuclear war heads.
We can't defend ourselves ?
Why ?? Why ?

153 million to pakistan ??

OP: No, my argument is that there isn't an objective 'fair' amount of tax that any of us should be paying in the way that the politicians like to imply.

Much of your OP was devoted to listing the ways in which the current tax-and-benefits system is not fair, as you see it. So how would you structure a fairer system?

Darren Jones (responsible for digital ID until yesterday) has just revealed that the plan was unfunded, so unfortunately scrapping that won’t help fund cutting VAT on energy bills or any other policy. https://x.com/darrenpjones/status/2079457574215119097?s=61&t=Jbl7A31sc2mxKFvJVlnovQ

No, the welfare state was never intended to function like it is today. The idea that we have to support this vision of the welfare state or we have to emigrate is nonsense. It is totally possible to make changes so people become more self reliant again and the middle classes aren't being squeezed to the point that they are often struggling to survive themselves.

If you are tired and weary of these arguments then perhaps you should emigrate as these debates will only get more fierce in the coming years. Look at the poll, I am in the majority. We are overdue a big shake up and I believe it's coming.

Until recently we were pretty flush. Then husband got made redundant. It’s hard for a man over 50 to find a new job plus the international situation is worrying so the sort of company that he has experience with aren’t currently hiring (also why he was made redundant). So now we aren’t flush and he’s on JSA. We aren’t spongers, or lazy, or gaming the system to our advantage. The number of people who are is tiny.

Well countered. The pp can always hide the thread if it’s too wearying anyway.

There seems to be a misunderstanding that foreign aid is humanitarian aid for feeding people/ building essential infrastructure, but it’s not. Foreign aid is her generally for - strategic influence, economic self interest (trade) security and soft power.

all of which is needed for Pakistan

No, again, my title literally summarises the point I'm making. Politicians live to pretend that tax rises are justified so people can pay their 'fair' share as if it's some objective and obvious figure that should be paid and we have somehow been getting away with underpaying for years. My point is that there are an awful lot of people that contribute nothing and take a great deal and yet the politicians never suggest that they aren't paying their 'fair' share. Why is that? How can you say that someone that's already paying a great deal is underpaying whisky someone that is paying nothing isn't?

I have lots of ideas about how I would change the tax and most importantly benefits system but that's not what this thread is about.

At one time we were sending aid to India…while it had a space programme!

I really hope that’s still not the case. Bonkers.

@Backedoffhackedoff I don't buy any of that.

But that’s literally what it’s for. What do you think it’s for?

You've missed my point. It's nothing to do with global economics.

If society needs these minimum wage jobs to be done, as you claimed, then they either need to be paid at a rate where people can support themselves or, if the country can't afford that, society as a whole needs to help support them through a benefit system.

Are you having a larf ?

One small business I know (sole trader) that employees 2 p/t staff has seen their NI contributions go up by 15% and that's before you factor in the increase in the National Minimum Wage.

Of every £10 I earn, £6.75 goes on tax/deductions. I’m living in my overdraft after 2.5 weeks of getting paid. Fed up of Labour. I see parents on benefit with multiple kids on expensive outings that me and my children can barely afford despite those parents not working and me busting a gut to be a ‘positive’ example.

Yet Pakistan won't take back their convicted pervy grooming gang leaders 😮

Time we stopped all this "Foreign Aid".as well as Visas.

Well it ain't this one .... grooming gangs brushed under the carpet by Labour's safeguarding PUS, daily rapes by illegals, increasing unemployment, stubborn inflation etc etc.

Clearly ever increasing taxes justified by "pay a little bit more" isn't helping.

The happiest societies are those where people have money in their pockets to enjoy their lives as they see fit. Meanwhile this government has just snet another £150m to Pakistan..... a big FU to the UK taxpayer again.

Well we don’t know what conversations are going on there but it seems unlikely that £153m is enough to get Pakistan to ignore international laws and take back British criminals who have Pakistani heritage or left 50 years ago