To be sick of politicians using 'fairness' as justification for tax rises?

[Itchthescratch]

Fairness is completely subjective and I notice that this is often shorthand for giving more money to those that contribute the least.

Of course there will always be those that can't contribute much due to factors outside of their control, but we are kidding ourselves if we pretend that there aren't already lots of people that are scraping by doing the bare minimum (sometimes even less) and making completely irresponsible decisions knowing the state will ultimately insulate them from the consequences.

I personally know people that have had lots of children that they can't afford and can't parent properly simply because they wanted to. They are now on an incredible amount of money as the two child cap has been lifted. I know people that have stopped working because they weren't much better off than being on benefits and they couldn't be bothered with the hassle. I know young people that are already planning to stay on disability benefits their whole lives for mental health issues as they want to stay home and game.

Is it really 'fair' to charge the rest of us more to subsidise all of this?

One's annual tax summary (well, those of us who have one) breaks down how our individual tax contributions are spent. Welfare is the highest percent, year on year.

That includes pensions though.

Who suggested they weren't included? They are afterall another benefit

So how did you become "not poor" ?

A feel good story of triumph over adversity and the times in which you achieved it might be quite inspiring for those of us facing a bleak future.

Yes, I think we're all aware of that (about half).

This site is surprisingly right wing.

Of course we need to question welfare spending, although on a European comparison, we are at the low end.

But, if we think about fairness, we have to think about why we have exploding wealth inequality. This isn’t because the rich have become more creative and brilliant. The causes are multivariate but a lot are down to government policy, both deliberate and accidental.

Fairness, inter alia, is what politics is all about. In a democracy, we get to vote on what we think is fair. The problem is a lot of politics is now based on dog whistles, not rational argument, or facts.

I worked hard and made huge sacrifices. Massive ones. I'm not suggesting it's possible for everyone but a lot of people could do a lot more. I am obviously hugely angry that despite the enormous amount of tax I already pay that apparently I'm still not paying my fair share. Meanwhile family members and friends pay nothing, claim an awful lot and aren't accused of the same by politicians.

The amount of tax (in various forms) I pay every month is vast and feels unfair to me. If I thought too long and hard about it I could get really annoyed.
I burst my ass off, like many many others it seems in the country, the harder you work, the more you are financially punished.

“I worked hard and made huge sacrifices. Massive ones”

can you expand on this? Why do you think you work hard and why did you need to make massive sacrifices?

I've been poor and now I'm better off.
Being better off made me feel more benevolent, not less.

This site is very much wedded to asking for higher taxes and still Labour heavy. There’s threads running constantly, the current one is which taxes should Andy Burnham raise.

This is my question too. The answer is vague. A single mum who is a full time waitress on minimum wage works hard and makes sacrifices, for example.

I don’t believe most people work hard. I think most employment in this country isn’t what I’d consider to be hard.

i think most people who say that just mean “I have a full time job”

and I don’t see any reason for anyone in the uk to make “huge sacrifices” in order to be “not poor”

"I worked hard and made huge sacrifices. Massive ones."

Working hard posting on MN during the middle of the working day in order that billionaires can hold on to their billions must pay someone quite well.

Sacrifice? Dignity.
Massive sacrifice? Soul perhaps.

Believe what you want. I don't care. If you're from some areas and backgrounds you really do have to make sacrifices to not be poor.

As you say, you are not an accountant and you have not run a business.

You repeat nonsense you’ve heard about tax benefits of owning a business as if it’s foolproof and easy and has no consequences.

If a business owner artificially suppresses salary for dividends they will find it extremely difficult to get a mortgage. You can do it for a couple of years but it will impact your ability to buy or remortgage your home in the longer term. The dividend allowance is relatively low and then it reverts to income tax rates depending on what is drawn down. There may be business owners with huge liquid assets who don’t need income. I can’t imagine there are many in that category and they would have paid tax every year as they took those assets from the company. They certainly can’t take loans from the company every year as you so confidently stated in an earlier post. They would be struck off as directors.

This is all pretty basic stuff.

You can only sell a business once - capital gains tax relief is of no practical use for drawing income from a business. I don’t know why you keep talking about it as some kind of loophole for business owners. It’s not income so not covered by income tax. It has its own category of tax.

It not my working day. I never advocated for billionaires.

Little light on inspirational detail to incentivise the allegedly prolific workshy....

Have you stopped to consider why the burden is being placed so heavily on you? Why fewer and fewer people are apparently able to capitalise on our meritocratic democracy in recent years? Why people working hard still need government top ups? Why is that?

You at 14.48 today.

"We have around 150 billionaires in the UK. Of those, most only have £1 billion. Very few people are hoarding billions in the UK. We lost 20 of them in the past 4 years so the number of billionaires is dropping quote significantly. What happens if they leave?"

Yep this is what I was saying earlier on. I earn a high salary and don’t work hard.

why do you need to OP, when I don’t?

We all make our choices.
We don't all pull the ladder up.

Waitressing isn't working hard, with respect. A waitress clocks on and off, and carries little to no responsibility.

Studying for a speciality, exams, whilst working extra unpaid hours every day, and an on call rota whereupon you are unlikely to get any compensatory rest is hard.

Can you say what sacrifices you made?

There is another huge problem we all have, and that is debt. 8% of public spending goes on debt servicing, more than 1/3 of the total welfare expenditure.

Like anyone, if you live beyond your means for years , eventually we need to pay the piper, which means cutting spending or raising taxes, but there is no desire to do this. Thatcher was the last PM to pay down government debt (partially due to North Sea oil).

Of course, another alternative is inflation, to reduce the debt in real terms. We have kind of being trying that the last few years. And this is another tax on the less well off. Asset prices go up above inflation (with negative real interest rates) and that includes houses. And all those salaries which depend on assets going up (the finance and allied sectors and property companies) go up with inflation (or more), so it is benign for them. Teachers and doctors not so much, nor other essential workers.

Anyone who sees taxes on the well off as the only problem is only looking through one eye.

Why is this a competition? There is no real way to measure what work is hard or not. Why is it, on MN, that only high earners are working "hard"?

I know I would find waitressing really hard work. Having to "mask" for a shift, be on your feet etc. I would hate it, and find it hard work. I could go home, but be wiped out for the rest of day and struggle to do much else apart from recover.
That is the reality for a lot of people in low paid jobs that do not have responsibility over things like hundreds of employees, or a massive budgets. But they still work hard.