Question about senior school sets in KS4

[jossbee]

Ds has been told today - last day of term - that next year he will be moving down a set in maths. This is despite him getting some of the highest scores in his class in his exams throughout the year. I haven’t bothered ringing today as it’s the last day and I don’t think teachers will be up for discussing it. I wouldn’t usually interfere but this will affect which paper he can take at GCSE level (foundation only if you’re not in the top set).

Ds is quite downbeat about it as he had done so well in his exams. Does anyone in the teaching profession know why this might be and how I can approach it in September with the school?

Don’t wait until September. Teachers, especially senior staff, don’t just have six weeks off! They might not reply until September, but it gives them time to investigate or at least be ready to investigate right at the start of next term.

I would send a polite email now to the head of maths and head of year, asking for clarification as soon as possible.

Best to email now rather than wait until September and be told it can't be changed due to timetabling etc.
Ask for clarity as to why he hasn't been moved up and go from there.

My son is going into year 10. Three days left of year 9 and we haven’t even been told if he will be doing double or triple science let along maths groups. We also don’t get target grades just levels which vaguely relate to grades but a broad range. I am probably going to chase next week to see about the science decision as at last parents evening the teachers were spilt over where he would be. It won’t do any harm to have clarity on what being in that set means and if it is fixed for the next 2 yrs

1. Of course it’s fine to wait until September, nothing will materially change during the holidays
2. I am extremely doubtful that being in set 2 automatically means he can only be entered into foundation, it would be far too soon for that kind of determination, I highly suspect set 2 will be taught all the material required and ultimately have a mix of foundation and higher students depending on how they do.
3. It’s very hard for anyone to speculate what paper your child is heading towards without an idea of target grade.

All you can do now is wait until September, talk to the teachers, and for the sake of your son, teachers and classmates, have a very strong word with your son about his behaviour in school, if you haven’t already, consider punishments and rewards at home that could support this.

In our school triple science has to be actively selected by the student as it takes up one of their options (so they get additional science teaching).

How many in the year group (550 in school doesn't help as we don't even know if the school has a 6th form or not) ?

How many sets? (you need to know)

What grade have they been targetting end y11 up to now?

Is there still a possibility to move back up again?

What are his aspirations? (eg Science based A levels will need higher than a grade 5 in maths).

The sets shouldn't be capping the tier / maths grade, the expected maths grade should be leading to the paper tier. DD's school had 'crossover sets' where the decision was made late as to which tier pupils sat.

I remember when I was at school, my English teacher said I had to do the foundation paper for GCSE. I was so down about it. I’d had a couple of low marked essays but didn’t feel I was that bad! I didn’t even think to tell my parents at the time but my friend took me to see the Head of Year about it. She was amazing & spoke to the teacher for me. The teacher had also accused me of truanting which was not true. She’d mixed me up with a pupil of the same ethnicity as me & had heard gossip in the staff room about that pupil & thought it was me. She’d been treating me badly since! I barely got an apology but I was moved back up a set.

I’d like to think schools operate better now but you should definitely email them about it and ask them to explain why they’ve done this.

I don’t know. How on earth would I know how many pupils are in his year? There isn’t a sixth form so I’d guess at 100 ish per year.

I don’t know how many sets there are. My son has always been in sets one or two, once in set three. I am only interested in how he’s doing not how many sets there are overall. I haven’t had any predicted grades as I said and he isn’t completely sure about his aspirations at this point but whatever he does we know that English and maths are important.

Yeah was at my eldest’s but at his school the teachers decide on ability and pupils don’t get an option 🤷🏻‍♀️

I thought those were good questions from @TeenToTwenties

I am sure you would be able to find out roughly how many students in the year. Your DS will know how many forms or teaching groups there are. How many in each group? that will tell you the answer.

Again, I imagine he knows how many sets there are. I think that is very relevant. If there were only three sets, bc the year group was small within the school (say 75 students as an anomaly), then a set breakdown of 32/25/18 is possible, which would leave a reasonable % taking H in the top set. But if the year is 100+ then there surely must be 4 sets and only having 30% sitting H is unusual.

Maths and English are indeed important, but the most important thing is to gain a grade 4 or 5 in both, unless a DC has high or sciencey ambitions (such as medicine or maths A level). Schools tend to focus on that (understandably).

If your ds's target grade is a 5 then it's better he achieves that solidly by doing F paper (though as I say, I think year 9 is a bit early to decide). H tier is not necessarily better and a student who will struggle to gain a 5 is better with F tier. That's why everyone is asking the same sorts of questions.

Is he an academic student overall? Is he thinking of A levels and university? Or is he headed in a more practical direction? My DC had different abilities and by the end of year 9 I could certainly answer those questions about them.

State schools have a PAN which is the number they take per year group.
A private school should say somewhere in admissions info.
Your son should know how many sets there are.
If you know how many in the year group you can guess the number of sets, so 100 would probably lead to 4 sets with lower sets being smaller than the higher ones.
You must have some idea how able he is? Don't the school reports / parents evenings tell you anything?

if there are at least 3 sets then capping all below set 1 to foundation tier sounds strange. Where have you got this information from?

You don’t know how many kids are in his year but do know their exact test scores to know your kid did better than them? Hmmm

I would just approach it with “hi I’m just checking you haven’t mixed my son up with someone else”
My son got mixed up with another child (same first name, same year, different surname) for behaviour points. When we asked the school; they agreed it wasn’t his and removed them. Sometimes mistakes happen.

If you were led to believe that he was going to move up a set, and now he isn't, then it is reasonable to send a polite email asking what has changed, and if there is anything particular he needs to work on. It is possible that there has been an administrative error, in which case hopefully that would trigger them realising and changing things. It's perhaps more likely that there is some other reason. There's often a bit of an overlap between sets, particularly at the set 1/2 borderline; some kids work better at the top of a set (for confidence), and others better at the bottom.

You might also ask when tier of entry is decided, which tier he is likely to be taking, and whether setting is reviewed during KS4.

It’s not unreasonable to expect you to know how many kids in the year and how many sets! I’m also amazed that you don’t know his target grades, surely this would have been mentioned during parents’ evenings? There’s no time during my DCs education would I have not been able to
answer these basic questions! Interesting that you got very defensive over the behaviour comment. A group of boys being ‘silly’ can be very disruptive. Given how bad behaviour is these days, if you’ve been informed about it then it’s probably more of an issue than you think! It’s not just about your DS, why should his right to sit the paper he’s capable of be of greater importance than the right of those hard working students in top sets to have uninterrupted lessons?

I know this because my son told me his exact marks and his position in the class, not because I’ve had any information from the school.

No it hasn’t been discussed. The school literally doesn’t give this information. Parents evening is a video call with a 3 minute timer, so you are limited as to what you can ask in that time. As I said, we get a grade sheet that shows blue, amber, green to reflect if they are at the expected level, above it or below it. No marks, no predicted grades. I only know the marks because my son told me. This just seems to be how the school operates.

And why would I know the number of kids in the year?! I probably should know more about the sets but like I said, I’m only really interested in my son. So when he comes home and says I’m in top at or second top set I have just left it at that.

Im sorry this information isn’t detailed enough but I can only work with what the school give me.

I am not defensive about the behaviour, I’ve acknowledged it, he’s been punished for it and it has resolved itself.

is it possible that the top set take further maths and this is what he won’t be able to take? At my daughters school set one do further maths, 2-4 the higher paper and only set 5 foundation only?
They’ve been resetted at the end of year 10 and a few have moved out of set 1.
but definitely query it - especially if they have inset days next week and staff may still be in.

I will definitely query it. In years 7-9 I have kept up with parents evening for his overall progress and behaviour but I haven’t had much more involvement with the school, trusting that they’d make the right choices with regards to his ability. But now we are going into year 10 and GCSE season I will be much more involved and will obviously advocate for him if needed so he can get the best possible grades.

Other important points have been made, but at this stage, for setting purposes it’s not just test results that matter but how quickly a student understands new work.

A student who needs a bit more explanation, but then goes on to do well once he’s grasped the ideas, is better in a lower set than one who gets new ideas quickly but can’t apply them to more complex problems.

I’m a secondary teacher. I would recommend emailing the head of Maths on 1st September. You could type it now and schedule it to send then. It could be an admin error or it could be a number of other things. Ask them to call you rather than reply by email so you can discuss it before your son returns to school. Also, additionally check your son’s timetable when it becomes available on whichever system the school uses. Our timetables will go live to students on 20th August this year but previously have been available in July. By doing that you are armed with all of the information available to you and will be able to confirm his set for September.

With regards to target grades, different schools and trusts do things differently. Many schools share target grades at the start of year 7 for GCSEs but some don’t do it ever. As a member of staff, I have only recently had access to the target grades for our current year 10s so those posters making comments on this need to understand that each school is different.

Thank you. I was starting to think I was going mad! Demanding answers that I don’t have (because the school hasn’t give me them) is frustrating. I think/hope that now GCSEs are looming we might get a bit more information with regards to specific marks and predicted grades but I can ask this when I speak to the school.

As I said, we get a grade sheet that shows blue, amber, green to reflect if they are at the expected level, above it or below it.

This sort of grade sheet is only useful if you know what the expected level actually is.

My DC’s primary school had grade sheets like that, and had explained that the “expected level” was based on an average child of that age.

My DC’s secondary school, on the other hand, had individualised targets for each child, so a score of, say, 70% on a Maths test could be ranked in any of those at / above / below expected boxes on the grade sheet depending on which child it was taking the test and what their target grades are.

It might be worthwhile asking the school for more detail on how they define “expected level” and if they have any target grades for your DS.

And why would I know the number of kids in the year?! I probably should know more about the sets but like I said, I’m only really interested in my son. So when he comes home and says I’m in top at or second top set I have just left it at that.

@jossbee I do think the number is really relevant though.

If a DC is in set 3 (as yours was, you say) then how many sets is fairly key. Set 3 of 10 (10 maths sets in the school I worked in)? OK so fairly high. But set 3 of 3 (which I guess is possible in your DC's school) is a different story.

It's not a bad thing to be in a lower set if that is the best place, ability wise. The pace is slower and there may be LSA support. But the H/F tier issue is relevant, especially if, as I noted before, your DS is overall academic and likely to want to go on to study A levels and a degree – especially if maths or science may be in the mix.

As an aside, I realise that schools are different, but I find it surprising that there has been no indication in terms of targets, flight paths, expectations from the school – especially as GCSE choices will now have been made; you might expect some feedback there, for example whether a DC would be able to take on triple science, whether they should drop a GCSE, whether they were capable of taking MFL.

I agree OP that it’s worth following up on all of this with the school – ask for target grades so you can get a better sense of what your DS is likely to achieve, since you don't have much of a steer as yet. That will be useful in a year's time when you and he are looking at options post-16.

Yes definitely ask the timeline. In my school the first report issued to parents will have target grades. The target grade is based upon their Year 6 SATS, however as teacher we then provide predicted grades. The predicted grades would be more accurate than the target as it is based on current progress rather than expected progress. We don’t tend to do predicted grades very often though. Usually after Year 10 mocks, then after year 11 nocks of which we do two. But if a parent asked I would be able to give them an idea of a prediction based off assessments.