AIBU to think school are too risk happy with older kids in Forest School?

[LizzieLookAtTheFlowers]

10yo was taking part in organised forest school activity and broke her collarbone. Am all for inherent risk of adventurous play, this is not the issue - had she simply fallen, I wouldn't be here. But, the hammock she was in collapsed and she was tipped out backwards about 110-120cm and landed on exposed tree root causing a displaced clavicle fracture. 2 weeks off school, aside from that healing ok, will need physio as has reduced range of motion.

However, circumstances surrounding the incident concern me.

1. The hammock had also collapsed on the previous go - child thankfully not injured.
2. Teacher was not there, they got him, he re-rigged it and tugged it, told them not to swing then went back to campfire.
3. There were 2 adults to 14 kids overall, but across 2 stations quite far apart, so hammock area couldn't be seen or heard when he was at campfire with the TA and other kids.
4. The big exposed tree root is what broke her collarbone

On first occasion, kids were swinging friends in hammock quite vigorously which is what caused it to fall down. On second occasion, one girl didn't listen and swung my daughter in it, but as she was one small girl it wasn't crazy swinging and it collapsed more dramatically than before.

School have essentially said Y6 are old enough to get on with things themselves and don't need babysitting, they should have been able to trust them (presume this means they blame the girl who swung it but they haven't explicitly said this). they have lowered the hammock a bit to 86cm and that H&S assessor said the knots were fine. But didn't explain why then the hammock repeatedly collapsed if the knots are fine.

They didn't report to RIDDOR as said it wasn't related to a work activity even though it was in lesson time, the equipment failed, had previously failed and teacher decided to keep going with it and leave the kids unsupervised.

No adult witnessed her fall or was there to provide assistance - she had to get up and be helped over to the campfire quite a way away to tell an adult what had happened, and they couldn't even hear her crying.

I feel uneasy. I don't feel the school are learning lessons from this that Y6 kids are still kids. Surely if something changes and a risk becomes KNOWN rather than theoretical they need to change safety plans. I probably wouldn't have left them to it at that point, or would have taken the hammock out of action for the lesson until I could look into why it was falling repeatedly. But their investigation showed "no evidence of unsafe management" not even the hazards in the fall zone or the height or anything (despite them making some changes).

It's not the first time. In last 12 months I know of 4 other kids hospitalised due to forest school. One of them I know the school were really defensive and blasé about. Despite their risk assessment stating "no running", they organised a manhunt activity which resulted in a boy running full pelt into suspended ropes and rebounding off them with his face/neck. He got severe facial/eye rope burns that scarred, whiplash and concussion. They said no safety issues found.

I just... I'm uneasy. I know accidents happen, and these kids will be fine, but both of those incidents plus the other two could have been so much worse and there's just a pattern of ignoring risk assessments and generally saying "oh well the whole point of Forest School is they get a bit roughed up and they're almost at secondary school!" It's always Year 6 that get hurt!

Am I oversensitive? Or should the school be a bit less risky happy?

I can see both sides. I do think 11 year olds should be able to play in the woods with very minimal/no adult supervision and a hammock 120cm off the ground doesn't sound unreasonably risky.

Children aren't getting the opportunities to take risks and play together without adult direction in real life any more so I would appreciate school facilitating that.

But then it does also sound like there have been a lot of accidents.

Also 40cm off the ground is the maximum safety height in schools for structures eg benches. Above this you need to think about safety flooring. Forest schools aren’t restricted in this way and therefore should risk assess all equipment. I’ll shut up now!

I haven't even raised that critical fall height is 60cm - over that height a child is at risk of a critical head injury. This was double CFH.

Regulations aren't that they shouldn't climb to that height just that the fall zone shouldn't have hazards in it and there should be impact absorbtion. I'm not even asking for the latter - just for there not to be big hard jutting out things in the fall zone. Our climbing frame is massively high - I don't have padding. I do have grass and no hard things sticking out anywhere. Mumsnetters are like "yes, I hate my kid; please ensure every opportunity possible to brain the little fucker".

I actually like mine with their heads not smashed in.

I'm more concerned with the common sense of grown adults with supposedly fully developed pre-frontal cortex, H&S training and a salary in return for doing a job properly than that of 10 year olds who legally can be expected to behave like children. But, you know, I don't hate kids like half of mumsnet 😊

My view on this would be that it was unfortunate and there are some factors that could have prevented it and you should make it clear that they should put measures in place to stop it happening again which you have already done . But like in all honestly 10 years olds do not require watching constantly . When I was 10 I would walk home from school all the way through the town on my own , roam all over the area with friends, climb trees, walls etc etc. accidents happen and it’s a fact of life . Forest schools would close if everyone started suing over stuff like this . I know you haven’t said that that is what you are planning but just saying .

Sounds like an accident - sometimes stuff happens.

They were told not to swing the hammock. They did it anyway and there was an accident.

No, I'm not suing them, (though if I did they would legally 100% not have a leg to stand on). But I also never said 10yos need to be watched constantly. Just AFTER becoming aware of unsafe behaviour and equipment already collapsing it might be a decent idea to keep an eye on them at that point? Or remove the ones who broke the rules? Or take the hammock down? Any of the above.

I'm sorry your daughter got hurt, and I hope she heals quickly and well. I think you're right that they absolutely should be following their own risk assessment, and that if they had this might have been prevented. But I'm not really sure what you're looking for from this thread? You're clearly certain you're right (as I said, I agree!) but no one is going to be able to advise you on how to make the school just be more reasonable.

Yeah I don't think I knew at first either! 🤣Sort of processing what I think and should do about it really, and testing my own convictions and arguments if that makes sense?A bit of exploration to understand why someone might not care about this kind of thing. But, at the end of the day, what gave me clarity was the lady who ignored her kids' school's defensiveness and red flags over recklessness and her child ended up intensive care and nearly died. So I did decide to actually do what I didn't want to do and escalate it to HSE etc.

It is likely school are not apologising because an apology can be taken as admitting fault and lability.

so I wouldn’t expect an apology.

on a separate note, I used to do midday duty at the primary school I worked at. We had a new climbing frame put in with the safety bouncy floor.

it was a fucking nightmare. The kids loved throwing each other off various bits of it and the bouncy floor actually made them do it more. We limited it to ten kids at a time and even then supervising it was hard.

some kids were just so dense we effectively banned them from it, you could have the “well the last ten times you jumped off there it hurt so what made you think it was a good idea this time” conversation only so many times before you wanted to bang your head against a brick wall.

after school some parents let their kids on it unsupervised and in the four years I was at that school there were a few broken bones (because the kids fell off or deliberately jumped off or ran into each other at a height).

but after the kids were dismissed it was at the parents risk and this was made very clear.

@LizzieLookAtTheFlowers i know that but I think you have done all you can . If they don’t do anything with the hammock they are thick and it’s their own fault if the eventually get sued

Forest schools and these Opal play schemes drive me insane. I don’t know how they get away with it. As someone who works in managing public buildings there is so much that just shouldn’t be allowed and indeed wouldn’t be anywhere else.I would report it yourself and also consider a legal letter. My daughter had an accident at school last year as a result of faulty equipment that nearly resulted in us missing our holiday. On holiday I met a teacher from a private school who said sue them that’s what happens in the private sector. We didn’t but if it had been more serious I would have.

The safety bouncy floor making it less safe! The playground at DS's school is sandy gravel which doesn't encourage kids to push each other off the climbing frames but does absorb some of the impact of a fall (the gravel will cut up hands and knees though!) Not heard of any bad injuries (beyond cuts and bruises) in the 7 years DD was there or the year DS has been. Kids play in it unsupervised outside of school hours too, DS often meets his friends there to play.

1 in 15 kids needing hospital treatment in 12 months does sound like something maybe off. I see why you're concerned, OP.

I do agree with a previous poster that the restrictions on kids taking part in activities that used to be really accessible and common 3 or 4 decades ago is probably, overall, pretty detrimental. But we didn't have that many broken bones and the like back then and we probably spent a lot more time doing those sorts of activities.

That letter reminds me of when I emailed the head teacher after two weeks of non stop activities at school including late nights for reception children in the run up to Christmas and my concerns on the impact/routine of the children to be told that if I don’t like it, there was the opportunity of not participating the following year. WTH, a parent brings you valid concerns about an incident and rather than address those concerns you tell them they’re the problem and exclusion is the answer.

I think you leave it. Today’s kids have absolutely no resilience and my personal belief is it’s because they aren’t exposed to situations where there’s any kind of risk, they then cannot handle any stressful situations when they’re teens. More kids should be climbing trees and falling out of them. I obviously wouldn’t wish a broken bone on any kid, but the risk is needed to build resilience that is woefully lacking. Additionally, 10/11 year olds were obviously messing around a bit.

But she didn’t fall on her head or spine. Kids have accidents at times - part of growing up. 🤷‍♀️

The HT was right; you don’t have to participate in all the end of term activities. Schools really can’t win can they.

I’m not a teacher, but I do have to write risk assessments for activities with children. One thing I always include as a risk is children not following instructions, because that’s what children do. The mitigation for that is to supervise them.

If I can understand and manage that as a volunteer, surely an education professional should be able to?

I would not be happy with that or their response, bloody hell 🤯

If this was my dd I’d create merry hell.

Classes of 30 kids out in the woods with a teacher and one TA is a lot of supervision. You can’t have eyes everywhere. A risk assessment is to to identify potential hazards, evaluate the risks they pose, and implement control measures to minimise them. They probably thought they had done that by lowering the hammock. I’m not saying it’s ideal but schools are ridiculously understaffed and I have only 2 children, both of who have had various accidents over the years and that’s almost 1-1 supervision. I really hope it doesn’t stop kids playing outside, schools are risk adverse enough. My kids old primary wouldn’t let them go out on the bloody rain.

Are you accepting though that your dc was unwise to get in presumably after seeing it just collapse? And that her friend should also be in trouble?
because yes this is school and teachers are there to supervise - but not all teachers are sensible. Nor the other kids, but a conversation with dd re well especially if you are outside of school at a park etc watch out for damaged equipment, consider if your friend is using it inappropriately in a way you could be injured.??
I also think sharing the risk assessments with parents/children would be good. Because they have to learn to make these decisions.
So eg where so many kids are dying in the rivers/sea at the moment. Many of them are with friends. A few have been with parents.
But understanding what is sensible ie not all going in. Not going in rivers. Can they swim. Adult to child ratios etc.

i suppose a question is what would have happened if dd did this in the park?
But presumably op would have told dd if there not to get back on something that was just not working and told dd to stop her friend swinging her. Ultimately dd also needs to be able to do that where a parent isnt there. And even if it seems like something is fixed it can still not be working right so be cautious.

They would not be able to defend themselves based on no supervision at all. The hammock failed once and was clearly not properly put back. A court find negligence against them for sure. Id sue for costs of private physio and because they have been so obstructive. Ask of they even reported to their liability insurers

Check the staff running the forest school are level 3 qualified. Hope your child is ok from there injury but it sounds like it was very much an unfortunate accident to me.

If you sued the school you would win , the health + safety person is prob another teacher so it’s not an independent assessor, if the same accident has occurred before ,the issue wasn’t resolved,.It does sound like the school has covered the truth up but there will always be some risks at forest school . The ball is in your court and if you did sue your child would be entitled to compensation and the school should take the issue seriously . Did you get an accident form on the day?