AIBU to think school are too risk happy with older kids in Forest School?

[LizzieLookAtTheFlowers]

10yo was taking part in organised forest school activity and broke her collarbone. Am all for inherent risk of adventurous play, this is not the issue - had she simply fallen, I wouldn't be here. But, the hammock she was in collapsed and she was tipped out backwards about 110-120cm and landed on exposed tree root causing a displaced clavicle fracture. 2 weeks off school, aside from that healing ok, will need physio as has reduced range of motion.

However, circumstances surrounding the incident concern me.

1. The hammock had also collapsed on the previous go - child thankfully not injured.
2. Teacher was not there, they got him, he re-rigged it and tugged it, told them not to swing then went back to campfire.
3. There were 2 adults to 14 kids overall, but across 2 stations quite far apart, so hammock area couldn't be seen or heard when he was at campfire with the TA and other kids.
4. The big exposed tree root is what broke her collarbone

On first occasion, kids were swinging friends in hammock quite vigorously which is what caused it to fall down. On second occasion, one girl didn't listen and swung my daughter in it, but as she was one small girl it wasn't crazy swinging and it collapsed more dramatically than before.

School have essentially said Y6 are old enough to get on with things themselves and don't need babysitting, they should have been able to trust them (presume this means they blame the girl who swung it but they haven't explicitly said this). they have lowered the hammock a bit to 86cm and that H&S assessor said the knots were fine. But didn't explain why then the hammock repeatedly collapsed if the knots are fine.

They didn't report to RIDDOR as said it wasn't related to a work activity even though it was in lesson time, the equipment failed, had previously failed and teacher decided to keep going with it and leave the kids unsupervised.

No adult witnessed her fall or was there to provide assistance - she had to get up and be helped over to the campfire quite a way away to tell an adult what had happened, and they couldn't even hear her crying.

I feel uneasy. I don't feel the school are learning lessons from this that Y6 kids are still kids. Surely if something changes and a risk becomes KNOWN rather than theoretical they need to change safety plans. I probably wouldn't have left them to it at that point, or would have taken the hammock out of action for the lesson until I could look into why it was falling repeatedly. But their investigation showed "no evidence of unsafe management" not even the hazards in the fall zone or the height or anything (despite them making some changes).

It's not the first time. In last 12 months I know of 4 other kids hospitalised due to forest school. One of them I know the school were really defensive and blasé about. Despite their risk assessment stating "no running", they organised a manhunt activity which resulted in a boy running full pelt into suspended ropes and rebounding off them with his face/neck. He got severe facial/eye rope burns that scarred, whiplash and concussion. They said no safety issues found.

I just... I'm uneasy. I know accidents happen, and these kids will be fine, but both of those incidents plus the other two could have been so much worse and there's just a pattern of ignoring risk assessments and generally saying "oh well the whole point of Forest School is they get a bit roughed up and they're almost at secondary school!" It's always Year 6 that get hurt!

Am I oversensitive? Or should the school be a bit less risky happy?

Bloody hell that's crazy!

So nothing has been done to ensure another child doesn't break their bones or worse? If they cannot be sure it won't happen (and that includes anticipating impulsive children), then it's unsafe.

Urgh, is it? School have made me feel like I'm crazy! They haven't sent me anything I've asked for like risk assessment, incident report, investigation report etc. And literally said this which made me feel like they're saying I'm the problem...

"As a result of this incident, we recognise that this aspect of Forest School may not have been sufficiently clear to all parents. Going forward, we will ensure that parents receive clearer information about the nature of Forest School, including the role children play in managing risk and taking responsibility for their behaviour. Parents who feel this approach is not suitable for their child will have the option to withdraw them from participation."

This could definitely be a RIDDOR reportable accident and there's nothing stopping you from contacting the school to say that you believe it to be one. You could also advise that you will be checking with the HSE to see what they say.

I've just seen your update with reply from them...gosh, way to pass the buck to an 11 year old!

Huh.

i’m kind of in two minds about this.

when I was young (and dinosaurs roamed the earth) I climbed everything and anything. I had multiple broken bones from falling off things (mostly trees) but they healed fine.

these days a lot of the activities I enjoyed as a kid - climbing trees, swimming in rivers and lakes, going walking in the Lake District (this was with a group), canoeing, etc etc really are severely curtailed for children and I don’t really think that keeping kids in a urban, don’t do anything for fear that a kid might potentially harm themselves sort of environment is really doing them any favours.

that having been said, broken collarbones can be a grade A pain in the bun.

on the third hand it does sound like the hammock failed because the kids were deliberately doing something they shouldn’t with it,

in the same way that if you are in a canoe and you try to tip it over it probably is going to go over and you’ll get wet.

Trees do tend to have roots. If you think its too dangerous, take your child out rather than try to spoil it for everyone else. A hammock 1m above ground should not be a cause for concern with Y6 children.

There is a 'foreseeable risk' at Forest School and doubly so if they have had several previous incidents.
If you're sure that they're not following their own RA either (whether 'suitable and sufficient' or not), they'd absolutely be in trouble with the HSE if the HSE were made aware.

Pretty much. They have said basically forest school is about taking part in fundamentally risky activities but the benefit outweighs the risk therefore the risk is acceptable.I think she did not just lose her balance and fall though; it was avoidable. At least twice they have ignored their own risk assessments and its resulted in injury - what's the point of having risk assessments? Getting nowhere with them.

OP it sounds as if they categorically don't understand H&S law.

I mean, your kid could easily fall and break her collarbone while riding her bike, playing a sport or falling from a climbing frame in a playground, or even falling downstairs. And the vast majority of 1 metre falls for kids absolutely don't result in a broken bone, so it sounds like she was just unlucky really - much like I was unlucky as a kid when I fell over playing in a field and ended up with a serious, limb-threatening injury. The risk of serious injury can sometimes be very low, but it's never going to be zero and sometimes, one kid will be the unlucky one. The alternative is that the kids don't actually get to do the fun stuff that's actually the USP of forest school - climbing trees, messing around in hammocks, playing in areas where there are things like tree roots to trip over etc.

So, while I'm sorry your daughter was injured, a broken collarbone is a fairly common childhood injury and I think the risks you describe are really part and parcel of forest school activities. Part of letting them go to forest school is about letting them take some risks and learn from that themselves, rather than being confined to ultra-safe and very dull and infantilising heavily supervised activities in a more sanitised and protected environment.

Yeah I agree I am actually all for forest school and that kind of risk taking. My problem is just you are supposed to manage the risks you can like clearing fall zones, keeping an eye on them and not let them do stupid stuff, and clearly if something falls down once then you reuse it and a kid breaks something you've got to say "yeah ok if equipment falls we should probably pause using it and figure out why". Just common sense stuff rather than covering everything in padding. Oh and if we have a risk assessment we should stick to it...

The point of having risk assessments is not to get rid of all risks.

the point of risk assessments is to list all the risks, and assess them for likelihood and severity if they occur.

then it is considered if any can be avoided.

some risks are intrinsic to the activity eg there is a risk of drowning in any water based activity such as canoeing.

if schools are doing risky activities (and any off site visit usually has it’s own risk assessment) then they’ll have written it down.

sometimes the way to avoid the risk is to not take the child because they can’t be trusted to be sensible. This happens sometimes on y6 residentials etc which often involve more adventurous activities. Either that or schools ask for parents/extra adults to support to be with the child that is likely to be impulsive/do stupid things without thinking.

I’m sorry your daughter broke her collarbone. It’s not a fun experience.

a hammock less than 1m off the ground does not sound massively unsafe on it’s own - it does sound like the kids were playing silly buggers and unfortunately she landed badly.

@LizzieLookAtTheFlowers they need to make an example of those who do not follow the rules and requests of teachers. The girl swung the hammock when told not to, there should be consequences for misbehaving.

These consequences should be stipulated before Forest school starts for all future sessions.

Yeah, but hammock is suspended between posts not trees so no reason for tree root. Also, there's a reason fall zones are supposed to be clear and this is it. She's lucky it wasn't her head or spine that landed on it isn't she? Thing is I'm not trying to spoil it for anyone - one of my biggest concerns is that if kids keep ending up in hospital as they have been they're going to end up with a prohibition order on the forest school. I like it - I am all for it. But if they keep making stupid mistakes like ignoring the risk assessments and directly putting kids in unnecessary danger THEY are going to end up spoiling it for everyone. If their risk assessment says risk of strangulation and spinal/head injury and fractures, only to be used with adult supervision... shouldn't they follow that?

Yeah - I have no idea what the conversation or consequences were they haven't mentioned her just said "year 6 should have been trusted" but no more.

For clarity, it was 120cm off the ground before now been lowered to 86cm. Nobody should really break anything falling 120cm but the tree root was the issue there. And that could have been easily rectified by repositioning the hammock posts. The risk assessment says risk of strangulation, entrapment or head or spinal injury or fractures and control was check fall zone for rocks and tree roots, safety briefing and not to be used without adult supervision. None of that was followed and if it had she wouldn't have been injured. I think that's why I'm concerned - like, risk assessments actually do prove useful in these situations but what's the point of having them if you ignore them?

You can't have it both ways. Kids get hurt doing fun stuff. It's just a hammock.

What was the hammock attached to? They need to make it safer.
Crap happens, but they are being flippant. As a kid I was feral. Up the trees, in to all sorts. But if we did something that hurt someone and an adult intervened they either made it so it couldn't hurt anyone, or removed it from use.

We made forts with stuff we prob had no business touching...it was dangerous so my dad EXPLAINED why, and then built it properly.

I feel that the explanation of risks to kids is lacking as well. It does sound rather half assed. I would assume that my kid would be being taught about these outdoor things as well as whatever else they do there.

When my eldest was in nursery they had real stubby hand tools. They let the 3+ kids use these with for the most part, no direct supervision. But they explained to the kids how to use them, and how doing x y z can result in injury.

But I dont understand how considering they are dealing with immature minds that dont understand risk, they seem to care less. I have to write a bloody 4 page RAMS just to sent a person into a worksite, and we have to have talks with them at the start of each day. We have to allow for the absolute stupidity of people.

If it was me, I have to admit I would be speaking to local council about it and asking if a 'normal' School did certain things, and list of what then happened, ask what would happen. Because they need to be treated the same. I do get the feeling SOME are just run by feral adults with reduced attention for feral kids.

From your description, the material didn't fell, the kids used it inappropriately. Hammocks shouldn't be swung. It sound that the swinging is what got it to come off the hook. The kids were told not to swing and didn't listen.

Kids are kids, but ultimately, if they were told not to do something and they did anyway, they take some responsibility for the injury. At this age, teachers can't ensure they'll be no accidents if kids don't do as told. It's unfortunate that she broke her collar, but it was not life threatening.

What I don't get though is why they wouldn't report the incident. What did they mean saying it wasn't related to a work activity? Was it after school?

I agree and that's why I'm kind of asking. I DO support forest school and inherent risks. Like I said - if she'd simply fallen I wouldn't be here. But the fact is she didn't just fall, and she didn't fall off her bike or anything - equipment she was using collapsed repeatedly and they ignored several factors of their own risk assessment. Had they followed them, she wouldn't have been injured and that is why schools HAVE risk assessments in the first place. I'm not going to sue them or anything but would just like them to say "yeah there are some things that could have been better and we'll do our best to make sure we're not letting silly risks go again."

Yes I know like I said she will be ok but I'm more worried about the potential. If she'd landed on her head or spine it could have been much worse. And similar with other incidents. If they have risk assessments, why do they ignore them then say everything is fine when injuries happen as a result?

As for RIDDOR, I think they're wrong. It was during lesson time, ie a formal lesson, school equipment collapsed, there was a near miss just BEFORE and teacher still left them to it and there was no supervision at the time. I can't see how it's not work related. She went straight to hospital and it was a specified injury. They aren't on strong ground really.

Why would any teacher volunteer for residentials anymore?

I'm 34 years in.
I'm done this year. Done.
Never a thank you for giving up your time.
Nothing but complaints.

Hammock is attached by synthetic ropes tied in some kind of specific knot around two posts. I don't really get how they work but apparently knots are sufficient.

I'm aware of 4 serious forest school injuries requiring hospital treatment in 12 months. Like not just cuts etc. 3 x fractures, 1 x concussion, neck injury and facial/eye friction burns. That's only the ones of I'm aware of. No way to benchmark it - but is that normal for one area of the school?

If she'd landed on her head or spine it could have been much worse
But that could happen using gym apparatus badly or even messing about on a chair. She didn't use the hammock as it was intended to be (or from what you say, the other girl didn't but who knows whether your daughter was in the fun or not).

I would chase about the incident reporting. It's the law to report it.

I put yabu, however im really torn.

i think h&s has been all over the place in my life. I started school there were full playground equipment at school. Then by my y6 all removed. But also kids injured with sticks in hedges so those removed too
But by the time my dc were little there was forest school which mine did locally from a very young age with me and nursery. And yes it was a safety nightmare. Insistence on fire lighting with toddlers and showing them how.
im surprised there arent more accidents.
Our school has 60 kids to probably only 2 adults.
It was harder as both my dc have adhd.

it does sound with your dc the girl swinging her was somewhat responsible having presumably seen what just happened. But yes i would have banned till i looked at it.

imo people who teach/ta/scout leader have to be pretty insensitive to injury. /risk because lookibg after other peoples kids is risky and theyre in large groups.
I find it hard watching kids climb tress and certainly other peoples kids.

I also think a lot of teachers dont have the experience to understand or predict how some kids /sen kids will behave so plan what will be very risky activities. Our school did a trip in reception which wasnt great and did have a kid run off.

in terms of broken bones though i think many kids arent eating properly so breaking them doing very little. Kids in my dc class just standing at football game, or cycling.

i broke a bone last summer, the tennis court was really really crap, loose gravel and huge hole. I skidded. And fell on my racquet hand. I probably should have complained as they desperately need to resurface it. But again i dont get how someone in charge could see that and not have closed it.
They have however removed a slide which i did think was incredibly unwise (crazy low railing!)

Also why didnt they have a chat with the class re why did the girl still push her but also why didnt she or others assist and go and get help! That is more troubling at 11!!
Sounds like they need first aid teaching.
Overall child behaviour is so much worse than when i was at school and the teachers are not watching or telling them off. Probably heading towards removal of all playground equipment again!