To have kicked an old man’s dog?

[itsme189]

This morning I was walking my 2 very small elderly dogs on lead in the woods near me where it’s nice and cool for them.

they love people but they don’t love when dogs run up to them and get all in their face, valid I wouldn’t like that either. If a dog on or off lead just walks past or gives them a quick sniff they don’t mind. I always tell people not to let their dogs come right up to them.
Theyve never bitten just growled and I just don’t want to risk anything.

there was an old man walking a large greyhound type dog off lead and he’s miles away from it it runs at us very fast so I stick my leg in front of my dogs and the dog doesn’t stop runs straight into my leg. He then excitedly throws his foot on top of my smallest dog he squeals in pain and my other dog starts growling and showing teeth.

so I picked them up and then the big dogs starts jumping up at me to get to my dogs so I kick it away.

Old man then starts screaming at me for “abusing” his friendly dog and a lady walking passed then said to him “I saw her kick the dog”

and now I don’t know if I did too much but I was so overwhelmed and worried it would become a fight and there’s no way my old boys would do well in that situation. To make it worse the lady made a post about it in our local Facebook group (luckily no pictures) and everyone’s saying awful things but they only know one side!

For the record the dog was not hurt didn’t even squeal!

Not the point of the post. The poster said people don't understand dogs, op has two dogs

Don't agree it being so black and white like this occasion clearly demonstrates sorry, I guess many people think the same.

The OP was caused alarm and distress, and physical harm as well.

The dog's motive for its behaviour would have made not a ha'p'orth of odds if its "enthusiasm" had caused a broken bone to the OP or a serious injury to one of her dogs, would it.

So the case is precisely that black-and-white; the animal should not have been being allowed to roam at large to cause alarm, distress and physical damage to anyone unable to get out of its way.

Nope not black and white, cos a-dog was being friendly, b-op was physically harming the dog by kicking it. Won't agree to it, don't care, sorry.

I do hope no "friendly, harmless" large exuberant dog knocks you over, and breaks bones because it is out of control and you are not supposed to take action to make it stop.

The animal was out of control, off lead, and dangerous. Taking action to prevent it from further damaging the person it was already damaging, or causing more harm to a small elderly on-lead and under control dog it had already harmed, was completely justified.

Op doesn't say the dog knocked her over or broke her bones, exaggerating much to make a point there are you 🤣 devils always in the details and you're kind of filling those details in from your imagination. But hey thanks for your nice wishes. And no, kicking a dog in these circumstances (the ones mentioned by op, not the imaginery ones) for me is not justified. we can keep going back and forth if you like, we won't be agreeing, but no worries.

Completely missing the point the pp is making, that those things could have happened, and in the moment what is the OP supposed to do, wait to see if she topples over and then complain about it? You have the very great luxury of hindsight that she didn’t get knocked over. She didn’t have that luxury. And I come back to and defend what I’ve said before, that the friendliness or otherwise of the dog is not something OP should be expected to judge, and not something that really makes any difference to her right to respond with reasonable force.

Your dogs were under control, on a lead. His dog shouldn’t have been off a lead if it approaches other dogs and has crap recall (or if he can’t be bothered to recall it)

I hate people who allow their ‘but they’re friendly’ dogs to bounce up to mine. One of my dogs isn’t friendly so he’s always on a lead. I don’t want my dog to bite, or to start a fight, so therefore I do what I can to avoid the situation, but if another owner doesn’t care, then what? . I don’t know if I’d kick another dog if he wasn’t actually attacking mine, but I’d certainly push it away and would be bloody angry at the owner.

Why is it unfair to not let dogs be off lead and enjoy the walk and socialise (yes I was told this once) but it’s totally fair to let my dog be stressed by the situation I can’t control because the owner is irresponsible 🤷🏼‍♀️

I don’t understand the logic of owners who don’t train their dog but then get annoyed when someone reacts to their dogs poor behaviour. The situation is created entirely by bad owners who get cross when your dog has a go at theirs, despite asking them to recall the dog or put it on a lead

Whether a dog is friendly or dangerous is in the eye of the beholder I'm afraid.

You can disagree all you like, but you don't override the law.

Also, @Kariksalomna , your definition of physical harm is interesting. You said that OP physically harmed the dog by kicking it away, but also are relying very much on the lack of harm to the OP. How is having a dog jump up with paws against her, trying to get to her dogs, not physical harm, but a kick to the dog is physical harm? There’s no evidence of serious injury from either. (And, btw, this is good evidence of the OP’s credibility, because she could claim injury if she was minded not to be entirely truthful).

So how come one is physical harm and the other isn’t?

That wasn't a legal situation. If it was op would probably lose given two eye witnesses critiquing her aggressive behaviour. Not that I think police would be interested realistically in a situation where there's no dog attack but a dog wanting to play and was rough. Agree that the dog should have been on a lead but don't agree with fork pitch yielding posters literally wanting the dog to be kicked and egging on the OP saying that was the right thing to do.

So, yeah, it comes to agreeing or disagreeing "I'm afraid", so best to stop acting all judge Judy. You agree all you want, I'll disagree all I want 😂

BTW In the case of the person I replied to, the "eye of the beholder" was seeing something imaginery, as in bones being broken and op being knocked over. Which isn't the case if you actually read what she wrote. I am afraid...

Cos there wasnt physical harm? Or a suggestion of it? Or the dog trying actively hurt op or her dogs? It all seems a bit of a drama to me, and the witness being concerned about op's behaviour also tells something. Anyway I'm bored, sorry, bye.

I'm interested in your definition of physical harm @Kariksalomna .

OP has multiple scratches on her shoulders and back and a bruise on her shoulder.
One of her dogs has a cut on his mouth and chin.

Doesn't matter if the dog was friendly and just wanted to play. By most people's definition, he caused physical harm to others.

Um, the OP wrote "Not that it really matters but I have multiple scratches from the dogs claws on my shoulders/back and the start of a bruise on one shoulder."

I call that physical harm, myself.

And her dog was injured and needed to be looked at by a vet.

I wonder what if any evidence there was that kicking out backwards to get the animal off her back did the greyhound any particular harm, given that the travel on that kick would be about twelve inches.

(Edited to add: sorry, SpanielsGalore, I was writing that as you posted.)

I can’t stand badly trained dogs and their useless owners who make excuses for them. No dog should be off lead if it’s prone to jumping up at other dogs or people, full stop. Either train your dogs or keep them on a lead FFS! You were not in the wrong OP.

Completely agree. We don’t all love your dogs and we certainly don’t want them in our faces!

Hey I’m on the OP’s side here! I’d genuinely missed the post where she referred to her injuries (I checked back and couldn’t see any), and was making the point that if there were no injuries on either side it’s inconsistent of @Kariksalomna to point to physical harm to the dog and deny physical harm to the OP, but my point is even stronger now, thanks for the correction.

It’s now been quite rightly pointed out to me that there were indeed physical injuries to the OP.

Anyway, you’ve been itching to get away for a while now, don’t want to keep you, so off you go.

There were physical injuries because she picked her dogs up.. google why it is a bad idea if you don't believe me. It was the worst thing she could have done, and it is the ONLY reason the dog was jumping up at her.

The dog shouldn't have been anywhere near her, but it was, and many, many (idiotic) people let their dogs run up to people, she now knows, and has admitted she could have dealt with it more effectively, but panicked in the moment which escalated the dog's behavior, it's very simple dog psychology.. if you have dogs you owe it to them to be learn how to deal with unwanted attention in a calm manor.

I hope if anything happens like this again, OP takes on board the advice a lot of people have given, which is as soon as you see an unwanted dog coming towards you, to turn and walk away from the interested dog, give a firm command to it, or use your body to block the dog from getting access to your dogs.. all of those a very effective strategies that work.. I know this because I am approached by idiots with loose dogs on a weekly basis, I've never harmed a dog in 30 years unless it was attacking.

Standing still and allowing them to come face to face, then picking them up, shouting the owner and lashing out started a chain reaction of excitement which OP, having her hands full of dogs did not have the capacity to de-escalate .. you should only pick up your dogs as a last resort or if they are being attacked.

One of her dogs had already been physically injured when she picked it up. I don't think the best thing to do would necessarily have been to leave it on the ground to be jumped on again by a "friendly, didn't mean any harm" thug of a dog, especially since its brother might then have tried to defend it and also been injured.

So your last sentence applies: she picked them up because one had been injured and presumably she preferred the other not to be at risk of injury as well.

Then they shouldn't have their unruly dog off leash, should they? Instead of reflecting on his own behaviour, this man lashed out at the OP.

So your last sentence applies:

Not in the slightest, he wasn't attacked, OP said the dog wan't aggressive or attacking, there's no point you assigning more intent than the person who was actually there as it is unhelpful in OPs situation.

Her dog was injured because she allowed a playful dog to come face to face with them, and like a lot of large playful dogs, they have no idea that their 'playing' is unsuitable for smaller, or frail dogs, that's where the owner should be stepping in retrieve (ideally!.. ideally it shouldn't bloody happen in the first place!) or in this case OP should have de-escalated it by moving away, blocking or giving a firm command.

I'm not asking you to take my word for it, it's dog psychology, and there is good reasons why people should only do it as a last resort, I've underlined the relevant part, a quick google will tell you:

Most trainers advise against picking up your dog unless they are very tiny and in imminent danger of being attacked. Lifting them removes their ability to defend themselves or give natural calming signals, and it can trigger the approaching dog’s prey drive, causing them to jump or bite you.

Instead of picking your dog up, the best approach is to act as a barrier and create distance:

Step between the dogs: Use your body to block the approaching dog while keeping a firm, calm stance.

Use vocal commands: Give a sharp, stern "No!" or "Stay!" to deter the approaching dog.

Walk away: If your dog is on a leash, calmly turn around and walk away at a 90° angle.

@SandyHappy
"There were physical injuries because she picked her dogs up."

No. There were physical injuries because someone allowed their out of control dog to jump all over the OP and her dogs.

Agreed.

Also, @SandyHappy , the OP did another thing you suggest, one of the things you say always works; blocking with her body. She did that. It didn’t work. The dog trod on hers, injuring it.

You said earlier that none of this was the OP’s fault, yet here you are again very obviously blaming her for her injuries.

No. There were physical injuries because someone allowed their out of control dog to jump all over the OP and her dogs.

Well obviously, but there is nothing OP can do about dogs being off lead and running up to you, when their owner is not near enough to retrieve. It is unfortunately the fact of being a responsible dog owner, it happens to me weekly, they are all tossers the lot of them.

What she can control is her own dogs and her own behaviour, which is what would have stopped this situation from escalating, to her dog being hurt, her being jumped on and hurt, and the dog being kicked.