to wonder if the world has gone a bit mad!

[guinea36]

I appreciate that this goes over ground that was covered in threads from the last couple of days. Apologies for that. But I really do feel as though I have fallen down some kind of Alice in Wonderland style rabbit hole!

I mentioned this article about Labour MP Caroline Flint to some friends today - saying I thought I was pleased that someone was raising girls' rights in the trans debate following the Top Shop changing room furore.

www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/caroline-flint-girls-rights-must-not-be-forgotten-in-the-trans-debate-a3696461.html

One of my friends responded by saying that there was no dichotomy between girls'/ biological women's rights and trans rights. In her view this is because anyone who identifies as a trans woman is a woman and to suggest otherwise was incorrect and an insult to the trans community.

I responded by saying that while I had no problem with someone who has been formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria and who is in the physical process of transitioning between sexes sharing a swimming pool changing room with me, I might not feel as the same about a man who had simply identified as a woman but had made no physical changes or undergone a formal diagnosis.
I argued that it was my right to feel like this. However I was told by another friend - this time male - that this view was bigoted.
Apparently although I have a right to object to someone who identifies as a woman but who isn't in transition, using a space traditionally reserved for females, I would be wrong to do so.

These are all intelligent people for whom I have a great deal of respect.
I'm unsure how they have come to these views but feel I must have missed some kind of intellectual newsflash down the line as I do not feel the same.

I can't understand why the women particularly - were seemingly unable to consider how that how we vital it is that we hold up any reforms that could impact on our fragile and hard earned rights to intense scrutiny.

I guess I was wondering if someone help me find the words and arguments to allow me disagree with them gracefully and in such a way that limits the chance of me being denounced as a bigot!

Oooh another Trans bashing thread.

Havent seen one of those in 20 minutes

It's not necessarily trans bashing at all .
It may be about preserving rights of biological females.

The provenances of trans rights and women's rights are very different. Both need protecting but it's not fair or rational or acceptable to protect one group by appropriating or sabotaging the rights of the other.

Oh ffs yabu

I completely agree with your views here. You are correct in what u are saying and if u have a view you are classed as gender phobia or trans phobia which is not the case. It’s become ridiculous.

Friendnomore- Christ, someone's swallowed the kool aid. Ffs.

You're fine with women's refuges, and women's safe spaces being infiltrated by a man then, who only has to say he identifies as a woman?

This is the third trans thread on the front page, I don’t know why people keep making new threads to say more of the same..

Transphobic, hate crime, old fogies! FFS FriendNoMore what are you on?

No it is not transphobic to not want my teenage daughter exposed to a penis when changing in any changing room! I don't give a shit whether the penis owner is wearing a pink tutu, a bird costume or an astronauts outfit! A PENIS does not belong in WOMEN'S changing room!

You are being transphobic and it's a hate crime. People like you are old fogies and thank god the younger generation won't put up it just like with racism and homophobia in the last 20 years

How is the OP being transphobic? 'Feeling' like or 'identifying' with the opposite gender doesn't change your gender. I honestly despair at 2017. This has been one of the most fucked up years I have ever lived through!

OP you are not being unreasonable. I read this piece in the Guardian and didn't actually finish it, because having googled the writer and saw what he looked like, was quite disgusted by the whole piece:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/21/trans-women-rape-domestic-violence-dangers

It's madness. And to the person I quoted about racism and homophobia, kindly fuck off. If you are black, then your skin is black and that is fact. If you are gay, then you are attracted to the same sex and that is fact. If you are a man but you feel like a woman, then you are a man that is male that may feel like a woman, but is not. That is fact.

Opinions are like arseholes everyone....well actually they are not because my friend has had hers stitched up so maybe it should be opinions are like stoma's and arseholes? Just so I don't offend anyone? FFS

Throwing words around like 'bigot' and 'transphobic' just seeks to silence those of who are pissed off with our rights being roughshod over.

FriendNoMore how is having an opposing view to yours homophobic? Where has anyone mentioned gay people? I thought we were talking about transpeople?

I get confused about how we as a society support genuine trans people, which is what I think the Topshop decision intended to do, but stop the fear that people may claim to be trans to have access to opportunities, or in this case physical space, that they wouldn't otherwise have access to. Then I wonder do people actually do this, ie pretend to be trans, is that line of thinking actually not based on reality (beyond a very tiny minority) and is something that is promoted by people with an anti-trans view? Is the concern justified?

Actually no, her response to getting undressed in front of someone with a penis is "Ew, as if".

This is really what AIBU needs; yet another trans bashing thread. God knows we've not had enough of them lately.

Oh FFS FriendNoMore stop being so hysterical!

You're actually comparing me to a Nazi because I don't my daughters getting undressed next to a penis, seriously?

Friendnomore. I'm younger generation. Don't you dare imply that youvspeak for me with that ridiculous immature language.

I seriously don't get it.

It's like, well I was going about my business and this person flashed his penis at me - society is like OMG that's sexual assault report it to the police!

Then oh my 14 year old dd was getting changed for swimming in the women's changing rooms and the person next to her got undressed and she saw their penis, she was most upset. - society is like you're transphobic, you nazi how dare you! Burn you at the stake!

Like I said, I'm confused!