to wonder if the world has gone a bit mad!

[guinea36]

I appreciate that this goes over ground that was covered in threads from the last couple of days. Apologies for that. But I really do feel as though I have fallen down some kind of Alice in Wonderland style rabbit hole!

I mentioned this article about Labour MP Caroline Flint to some friends today - saying I thought I was pleased that someone was raising girls' rights in the trans debate following the Top Shop changing room furore.

www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/caroline-flint-girls-rights-must-not-be-forgotten-in-the-trans-debate-a3696461.html

One of my friends responded by saying that there was no dichotomy between girls'/ biological women's rights and trans rights. In her view this is because anyone who identifies as a trans woman is a woman and to suggest otherwise was incorrect and an insult to the trans community.

I responded by saying that while I had no problem with someone who has been formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria and who is in the physical process of transitioning between sexes sharing a swimming pool changing room with me, I might not feel as the same about a man who had simply identified as a woman but had made no physical changes or undergone a formal diagnosis.
I argued that it was my right to feel like this. However I was told by another friend - this time male - that this view was bigoted.
Apparently although I have a right to object to someone who identifies as a woman but who isn't in transition, using a space traditionally reserved for females, I would be wrong to do so.

These are all intelligent people for whom I have a great deal of respect.
I'm unsure how they have come to these views but feel I must have missed some kind of intellectual newsflash down the line as I do not feel the same.

I can't understand why the women particularly - were seemingly unable to consider how that how we vital it is that we hold up any reforms that could impact on our fragile and hard earned rights to intense scrutiny.

I guess I was wondering if someone help me find the words and arguments to allow me disagree with them gracefully and in such a way that limits the chance of me being denounced as a bigot!

@FriendNoMore

I’m in my early 30s. Certainly no ‘old fogy’. And I agree with the OP.

Totally support the rights of trans people to dress how they want, use whatever name they want, and live/work/love without being discriminated against or subject to violence or bullying.

However, transwomen are transwomen – they are not the same as biological women. They are a subsection of biological men.
That’s not a slur against transwomen, it’s biological fact.
Being aware of biology is not transphobic, and nowhere near comparable to racism. To say that it is comparable is a massive insult to people who have experienced true transphobia and true racism.

Interesting that you would bring up homophobia as well. The trans agenda is actually deeply anti-gay as well as being anti-women.
E.g. lesbian women are suddenly expected to accept partners who ‘identify’ as women, but still have a functioning penis.
And then you have the whole issue of gay men/boys being encouraged to transition into ‘women’ rather than be accepted as being gay…

How do you feel about the homophobic undercurrents of the trans-agenda?

Then I wonder do people actually do this, ie pretend to be trans, is that line of thinking actually not based on reality (beyond a very tiny minority) and is something that is promoted by people with an anti-trans view? Is the concern justified?

I'm a man. The Gender Recognition Act means that people transitioning need to be assessed by a professional and prove that they have been living as the opposite gender for a few years to show it is serious. It is thought that when this is amended it will look at removing the need for an assessment before being able to apply for gender recognition. Which will mean, I could say I'm a woman and apply to be a woman and then legally be allowed to enter your changing rooms. I could legally be allowed to enter women's refuges. I could legally be allowed to enter a women's only talk on women's rights. I could legally be allowed to enter the women's toilets. I could legally be allowed to enter these spaces whether I'm sporting a beard, a dress, high heeled shoes or a tuxedo. I could have a history of violence against women. I could be a rapist. Does that not worry you? This is obviously NOT me or about me in any way and I hope nobody takes that post offensively I'm just making the point hopefully very bluntly to see how fucked up this is I am disgusted by this law for my sisters, nieces and all women quite frankly.

Are you sure that they are quite as intelligent as you think? They don't seem to have engaged with your argument at all which is a hallmark of educated stupidity. I can understand why they might think that it is bigoted to say that someone who has identified as female isn't allowed to self identify as a freedom of expression/freedom of thought and speech POV but that is very far removed from safety concerns raised by rights arising solely from a declaration of identity without undergoing as you have said diagnosis and transition etc. It's like they heard you say something that wasn't 100% supportive of the trans scene and their little brains exploded.

E.g. lesbian women are suddenly expected to accept partners who ‘identify’ as women, but still have a functioning penis.

That's interesting because I've been accused as a gay man of being transphobic because I don't want to sleep with someone that 'identifies' as a woman. It's crazy.

FriendNoMore
You are being transphobic and it's a hate crime

Where exactly is the OP's hate crime?

FriendNoMore
hostility or prejudice towards transgender identity applies to OP and many users in this thread.

Could you cite the hostility and prejudice then in OP's post then?

OP is not being transphobic and there is certainly no hate crime! Good grief! Please do not undermine the cases of victims of real hate crime by suggesting such a ridiculous thing.

To the pp asking if people pretend to be trans, I know a man who did. Well, friend of a friend, you know!

Also friend could you cite the criminal offence in OP's post?

Friend is clearly goading but if it turns up into a long running thread which shows them up for spouting the idiocy they do, then who am I to stop them?
¯\(ツ)/¯

Friends...For hate crime to be determined a crime has to be committed. The victim needs to then confirm they think was motivated by prejudice. What is the crime? I can see why you think it’s motivated by prejudice, but what is the actual crime?

FriendNoMore

You were answering me very quickly when you could cut and paste. Strange, you seem to have disappeared now I've asked you to cite the hate crime specifically, and cite the hostility and prejudice. Are you coming back with an answer?

That’s not a crime unless they do something to harass, intimidate or harm someone.

I'm not convinced that your friends are as intelligent as you (and perhaps they ) think they are. They have no reasoned argument to respond to your points; instead, they have just trotted out the kneejerk response of "bigoted/ transphobic / transwomen are women" without actually considering the underlying issues. Sounds like they're just spouting what they believe is currently the 'right' thing to say without ever engaging their own brains.

The key point that they are missing is that there are certain circumstances where certain roles and facilities are allocated or used according to sex, not gender- this is because the nature of those roles or facilities are dependent on the biological sex of the service user, regardless of the fact that some transactivists would like everyone to pretend that physiological functions are inconsequential and only nebulous feelings are relevant.

For example, the care services required after rape or sexual assault would be different for women compared to transwomen; women will need pregnancy tests, transwomen won't. Men's toilets will not contain the sanitary disposal facilities that a transman still having periods would need. This sort of thing depends on the biology associated with a particular sex- gender, being a social construct based on how closely somebody's performance of masculinity or femininity fits the stereotype, has no bearing on the physical services required

FriendNoMore
They are hostile to a woman using the women's restroom with them.

The OP didn't even mention a women's restroom.

That is hostility and prejudice.

Where?

I'm a female naturist, and have no qualms getting changed/naked next to a man with a penis, nor about using the same toilets (assuming there are separate cubicles - since having kids, I relish the minutes seconds peace I get sat on the loo!). Although I know it is not to everyone's taste, I actually think having unisex facilities, with separate cubicles as needed, would make a better society, and get away with some of the supposed trans-phobia.

However, I have also lived in a women's refuge for 6-8months when I was a child. Women absolutely do need a safe space away from men at times, for their physical and mental health.

Whilst Utopianly sorry, can't think of the right word I think everyone should be free to wear, or not wear, what they wish, and have the freedom to go where they please, etc unfortunately society is nowhere near that stage yet. In the meantime, there needs to be, in certain circumstances, separation of the sexes for everyone's benefit.

Friend seems good at hurling accusations of transphobia at people worried about women's safety. I think this makes Friend very bigoted and natal-female phobic and also rather dim and close- minded.

FriendNoMore
sharing a swimming pool changing room with me, I might not feel as the same about a man who had simply identified as a woman
Hostily in sharing the swimming restroom and calling a woman a man.

Where is the hostility precisely?
How precisely do you differentiate between hostility and personal preference or opinion?
What criminal act did the OP commit?

most of the generation died out

Surely it should just be died - died out would refer to a species, order or genus, wouldn't it?

Unless Friendnomore is of a new, presumably superior species?

Oooh another Trans bashing thread

Havent seen one of those in 20 minutes

Must be a record, they seem to pop up every five minutes. It is strange as I have never met anyone in real life who is bothered about trans people and yet on here it is an absolute obsession.

Good job she's not calling a woman a man then eh, Friend?