to wonder if the world has gone a bit mad!

[guinea36]

I appreciate that this goes over ground that was covered in threads from the last couple of days. Apologies for that. But I really do feel as though I have fallen down some kind of Alice in Wonderland style rabbit hole!

I mentioned this article about Labour MP Caroline Flint to some friends today - saying I thought I was pleased that someone was raising girls' rights in the trans debate following the Top Shop changing room furore.

www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/caroline-flint-girls-rights-must-not-be-forgotten-in-the-trans-debate-a3696461.html

One of my friends responded by saying that there was no dichotomy between girls'/ biological women's rights and trans rights. In her view this is because anyone who identifies as a trans woman is a woman and to suggest otherwise was incorrect and an insult to the trans community.

I responded by saying that while I had no problem with someone who has been formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria and who is in the physical process of transitioning between sexes sharing a swimming pool changing room with me, I might not feel as the same about a man who had simply identified as a woman but had made no physical changes or undergone a formal diagnosis.
I argued that it was my right to feel like this. However I was told by another friend - this time male - that this view was bigoted.
Apparently although I have a right to object to someone who identifies as a woman but who isn't in transition, using a space traditionally reserved for females, I would be wrong to do so.

These are all intelligent people for whom I have a great deal of respect.
I'm unsure how they have come to these views but feel I must have missed some kind of intellectual newsflash down the line as I do not feel the same.

I can't understand why the women particularly - were seemingly unable to consider how that how we vital it is that we hold up any reforms that could impact on our fragile and hard earned rights to intense scrutiny.

I guess I was wondering if someone help me find the words and arguments to allow me disagree with them gracefully and in such a way that limits the chance of me being denounced as a bigot!

just to take one small point from this debate and as mentioned by MissionitsPossible and kathybeale*.. if the argument from transwomen is that they are at increased risk of violence from males, then why one earth is it logical to allow bad law to pass that will allow males to easily use the law to gain access to womens spaces unchallenged and thus increase womens (trans and biological) exposure to males in private spaces such as toilet facilities and changing rooms, as well as in rape counselling centres. There is simply no sense to it. It is myopic and bonkers in the extreme, even from transwoman's point of view. So no OP, YANBU!

Cis-woman is offensive to me as it implies that as a natal born biological woman, I conform to an artificially constructed gender identity/role. Now I may or I may not, but to assume this about all females/ biological women who are not transwomen simply as a means of distinction (yet apparently there is also no distinction) is offensive and labelling, and to insist on using cis in the face of rational objections is actually bigoted.

I think the world has really gone a bit mad and I really don't like it.

To our genergation you are as bigioted as racists and homophobes. Tide is changing and eventually your generation will die out and more people will realise how wrong you where

No, what will happen is you and your generation will grow up and realise you were talking bollocks like we all do at ‘our’ age and the gift of eternal knowledge has left long ago.

Seems FriendNoMore has disappeared again and can't provide any proof of his claims that the OP's post was a hate crime.

Why do so many MN posters come onto threads, make wild claims about the existence of something which they don't like/illegality, when there is none? And when it's obvious they can't back their claim up because their claims are all made up in their mind, they simply don't have the integrity to say "actually, I was wrong, I have no evidence, my argument was totally baseless".

I just don't understand why some posters do this. Are they so desperate to find offence that they exist constantly in this gear and they actually hallucinate?

They’re usually just parroting what they’ve heard/read. That coupled with arrogance and the need to be a part of something cool they haven’t had any of their own thoughts in whatever cause they’ve latched on too.

Easily manipulated, ripe for the picking types. We probably all had a thing we cringe about now looking back.

there are a few things about all this that bother me, some I have seen discussed on MN, over the past few weeks, some have not.

As it stands there are several programs/ incentives to get women/ girls involved in stem subjects. When all these places get given to men/ boys the program will be seen as a success and no woman/ girl will have benefited.

So men paying for men to get a leg up.

The recording of crime statistics.
The recording of medical data, how can anyone benefit if data is being Miss reported?
How will anyone no how is at risk from what?

Resurch into sex specific conditions, how will that work?

I don't even want to think about an whole genaration of kids being sterile.

YANBU

Female changing rooms should not have to involve anyone with a penis.

Saying that I'm a tad fed up with posts about trans/genderfluid people now. Nobody knows who is what these days. But I definately think penises shouldn't be allowed in a female only space.

I agree with the OP. And it ridiculous that we have to fight to say we are female -biologically female. And (no surprise) we are different to males physically.
So bringing the two together and saying well someone born male wants to transition so now you have to accept them as a fellow female, and the to be more fair to those transitioning or thinking about transitioning we will take the name away from you, so when you are classed as women or female you become people or persons, in case we offend anyone else. What a joke. Seriously. I know people are fighting for everyone getting what they want, and everyone being they want,and everyone doing what they want and hey no one can challenge anyone. Nope. But seriously yip the world has gone mad OP.

YANBU. As is usually (almost always) the case its the blindly accepting crowd that are unreasonable. And in this case anti-women

Just a side note - but I live in a European country where all the shop changing rooms are mixed but comprised of single curtained cubicles with a staff member on duty outside.

Wouldn't a rather simple similar set up eradicate these issues/fears:debates?

Male on female sexual harrassment and assault is so common. It is really unreasonable to believe that a certain number of individuals would want to gain access to women's communal changing rooms purely for their own sexual purposes?

I certainly haven't always agreed with the views of Caroline Flint but I think she is spot on.

I support trans rights and can't imagine how awful it must be for someone in that position. And it's because I support trans rights that I agree with OP - if someone has just decided to identify as the opposite gender, without taking any medical steps or diagnosis, then they do not belong in safe spaces for that gender. It's making the whole thing a mockery for actual trans people.

If a 14 year old MTF who has been through counselling and identifies as a female but who isn't old enough to have surgery yet wants to change in a women's dressing room (which usually have cubicles anyway) and is probably going to great lengths to hide anything male about them, I have no problem with that. If a 14 year old male who has just decided to identify as female but has made no attempts to transition and wants to just get his cock out infront of women, I have a big problem with that.

You are being transphobic and it's a hate crime. People like you are old fogies and thank god the younger generation won't put up it just like with racism and homophobia in the last 20 years.

Is there a hierarchy of victimhood? What happens if the trans person is a privileged old white (former) male (and Tory voter ) and the person committing the hate crime is an oppressed non-white woman from a religion that doesn't approve of transexuals? Who would the younger generation support in such a case?

It used to be said of young people that they

'Think they invented sex'

Now some of them are convinced they invented 'gender fluid' when its just people being normal human beings

Although my children keep saying 'are you assuming my gender' they know its the quickest way to wind me up

Hi
Apologies I was out for most of the day yesterday and assumed because only a few people initially responded that the thread would get lost somewhere on Mumsnet.
thanks so much for all your replies on both sides of the debate. I really feel that we really need an open discussion on these issues.
We live in a democracy and not an authoritarian state and respectful discussion should not and is not a hate crime.
I hugely appreciate the fact that Mumsnet is offering the opportunity to examine this issue.
Friendnomore
I was very amused that I am apparently 'an old fogey' at 36 and a new mum! I sincerely hope there's a little bit of life left in these old bones yet!
I response to your second point, I would say that the battle against racism, homophobia and for women rights have all been very hard won and are fragile. It's absolutely crucial that anything that might impinge on rights for any of these groups should be examined and discussed clearly.

Muslim, Sikh, Jewish and Romany woman must have single sex toilets. Its bigoted to tell them to stay at home

This is something I have been pondering. Who's rights are going to come out on top in a situation where someone of Muslim/Sikh/Jewish/Romanv religion/heritage/belief/ace/ethnicity (one, some or all of those!)? If we accept it would be reasonable for a Muslim woman not to change in a room full of men, how does that work when someone with a penis is in the room? Who's rights triumph? Can a Muslim woman say sorry, no, I want a woman not a transwoman? Or is the suggestion all Muslim women are guilty of hate crime because they would struggle being examined by a transwoman (assuming they would - it is my assumption and I am not Muslim)? And are we then not guilty of some kind of hate crime by saying 'All Muslims....'.

And transmen....what happens to them? Do they have to use male facilities? Or will it be OK for them to continue using female facilities? Where will they feel safer? I would hazard a guess many would prefer to continue to use women's facilities because, you know, men and the dangers transwoman experience would still apply to transmen, surely? Can a transman expect to use a male bathroom without fear of violence or rape?

Just a side note - but I live in a European country where all the shop changing rooms are mixed but comprised of single curtained cubicles with a staff member on duty outside. I live in England and most changing rooms have the single cubicles with doors or curtains but apparently having a man in the next cubicle means women aren't safe.