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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Canada, Citizenship and The Queen, AIBU or WWYD?

91 replies

MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2014 19:39

I've applied for Canadian citizenship. I'm taking my citizenship exam this week and there is a LOT of stuff in the study guide about the Queen. I'm a Republican. If I pass my exam and get to take my oath that will be,

I swear (or affirm)
That I will be faithful
And bear true allegiance
To Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second
Queen of Canada
Her Heirs and Successors
And that I will faithfully observe
The laws of Canada
And fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.

All great except the Queen stuff (and heirs and successors). My options as far as I can see are,

a) mumble through the Queen stuff. I will be in a room with people fleeing death and torture who will be taking this oath very seriously so I don't want to do this. Also, I think it's a bit shitty. There will be a Mountie there FGS.

b) affirm properly and give up my Republican leanings. Don't really want to.

c) don't get my citizenship (not going to happen. DD and DH are Canadians, I pay taxes, contribute and will be a 'good' Canadian, I want to vote).

d) some clever thing MN will come up with that will solve this for me.

WWYD?

OP posts:
AnguaResurgam · 21/10/2014 19:44

b) and campaign within the current laws for constitutional change.

You do, I think, have to affirm allegiance to Canada as it actually exists at the time of affirmation. But the laws of Canada allow for democratic change and campaigning in support of it (not so keen on treason/subversion/revolution as means of change, so don't try them).

ladeedad · 21/10/2014 19:49

Say it but cross your fingers behind your back, like in The Truman Show.

MollyMaDurga · 21/10/2014 19:53

I've got the same dilemma for British citizenship. . I go with option d!

Original poster
MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2014 19:53

I get the idea of affirming but keeping the option of still peacefully objecting to the status quo.

Crossing fingers is not an option. I can't in front of this guy...

Canada, Citizenship and The Queen, AIBU or WWYD?
OP posts:
Drquin · 21/10/2014 19:54

D) affirm fully, in that belief that affirmation "The Queen" is an affirmation of you planning on staying a good citizen, law-abiding etc etc
All the while knowing that part of the democratic freedoms you'll enjoy will allow you to campaign freely for a change.

There's a similar line in the girlguiding promise (not quite the same level of seriousness I know!) where you promise to "serve the Queen". As a leader I al?ays explain that as being a good citizen / serving the county - not literally serving her a cup of tea! Can you view it similarly?

AlerieVelaryon · 21/10/2014 19:56

Did you see the South Park episode that was about the Royal Wedding? Monarchy is a bit ridiculous and so is accepting a foreign monarch BUT constitutional monarchy is not an uncommon form of government and is in my opinion not the Queen holding power but rather her denying power to tyrants and politicos. Compare and contrast with a presidential system, how much more pomp does an American president have? I realise that I am not helping with your dilemma but maybe you can be a good Canadian and a Republican and just accept that Queen rules Canada with the consent of her subjects (largely) and as a democrat you accept the will of the people.

Nandocushion · 21/10/2014 19:57

It seems really unfair. I am Canadian by birth and have never had to do this, nor would I. In your position I would probably do a) and not really think too much about it, but I understand how you feel.

Also, what Angua said. You can affirm, then campaign for change.

Original poster
MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2014 20:04

FWIW I think the reasons there is no real opposition to being a constitutional monarchy here, with a foreign head of state includes the following; it's very stable; as Alerie says, it is certainly a good option when compared to others; it is distinctly unAmerican; it is slightly anachronistic and old-fashioned; they quite like the Commonwealth, have ties to the Caribbean and other members; it looks good on the money, stamps, public buildings and so on.

All of which I'm on board with! So, maybe I do agree with Canada having Her Madge. She still has a certain amount of inherited power which I don't. But, if she never exercises that power, does it matter? Enough to make a fuss?

OP posts:
Liara · 21/10/2014 20:06

I had to do this to get UK citizenship. Fortunately they just asked me to sign a piece of paper rather than actually getting me to say anything, but still it grated.

oddcommentator · 21/10/2014 20:31

so heres the thing - you aren't forced to become a Canadian ciitizen much as I think Liara wasnt forced to become a British citizen.

Think of it as a club, not a golf club but a social club. There are rules which they ask you to abide by and promise to stick to when you join. If you object to the rules, you don't have to join.

Now by all means exercise your democratic rights when you are in - but thems is the the entry rules. If you dont like it, there are other countries which offer alternative arrangements of both government and constitutional arrangement.

oddcommentator · 21/10/2014 20:33

A few years back took the kids skiing in Canada - there was a mountie greeting us at the airport. His jaw was carved by a rockies glacier.

tis' a magnificent awesome beautiful country and our families first choice of places to live if we ever emigrate.

Original poster
MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2014 20:41

If you dont like it, there are other countries which offer alternative arrangements of both government and constitutional arrangement. Which would be fabulous if DD and DH weren't both Canadian they didn't have to swear anything!.

OP posts:
amicissimma · 21/10/2014 21:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Liara · 21/10/2014 21:06

That's the thing, isn't it? I didn't want to take the nationality, and in fact didn't for many years, then 9/11 came along at a time when I was spending a lot of time working in NY, and dh sat me down and said it was unfair on him that if I was stuck somewhere due to a terrorist incident he would not be able to use the UK's consular services for assistance, and would be forced to use my home country's. Which would be an issue for him, as the language is not English, and in a stressful situation he wouldn't want to have to use it.

So it's a bit more complicated than deciding whether to join the Bullingdon club, isn't it?

Also, one of the reasons I used to love the UK was for the way different ideas had a place and were welcome, including being a republican (as everyone in dh's family is!)

angeltulips · 21/10/2014 21:10

Ugh. This happened to me when I became a uk citizen. I justified it on the basis that (a) my home country also has the queen as HoS so I want signing up to anything I wasn't already bound by (despite not having the choice) and (b) I wasn't planning on trying to remove the monarchy other than by legal means so actually I could get comfortable by interpreting the oath as allegiance to the UKs current HoS who happens to be the by product of a ridiculous antiquated system which should be abolished rather than to the principle of monarchy itself

Not perfect, but it got me through

WidowWadman · 21/10/2014 21:18

Liara - how come you only had to sign a piece of paper and not say an oath or affirmation? I thought that's compulsory. They let you bring your own holy book (upon receiving the invitation with this info my husband only sternly said "You will not wear a colander on your head", the spoilsport.

Everybody was too embarrassed to sing the anthem though and just stared at their feet until the backing track was over.

bodhranbae · 21/10/2014 21:26

Way I see it is this - because the affirmation to Betty bit doesn't mean anything to you then it shouldn't bother you to say it.

I can say the Lord's prayer - doesn't mean jack shit to me so I don't mind saying it. Could easily be reciting the Argos catalogue.

Does that make sense? Confused

WandaFuca · 21/10/2014 21:29

I'm not sure what powers QEII actually has. I think the principle was established back in the days of the Stuarts and William&Mary that it's Parliament that rules, the Queen only reigns. I think that's the point of it being a constitutional monarchy. In more recent times, the government of the day were influential in booting Edward VIII from the throne.

I think you could swear allegiance to a figurehead of a governmental system that is democratic in all but name. You could think about swearing allegiance on a conditional basis - that your allegiance only goes as far as the Queen, and subsequently Charles, stick to the rules of keeping their beaks out of the running of the country.

MagicMojito · 21/10/2014 22:01

Seriously not being arsey but can't you just say it and not mean it? Does it really matter? After you have done your speech bit what effect will it have on your life? they are only words afterall Confused

MagicMojito · 21/10/2014 22:02

Reading my comment it sounds arsey, but I swear it's not Grin Grin

InAndOfMyself · 21/10/2014 22:09

B, do it properly if you are going to do it.

crazyforbaby · 21/10/2014 22:13

Hi Mrs TP
Just wanted to say 'Congrats' on getting your citizenship. It is a long haul to get to that stage. We have lived in Vancouver for 6 years and are going to start the application for citizenship next month, but it's taken a lot of work (or rather blood, sweat and tears!) to settle in and make the whole thing work!
Hope the ceremony goes well for you x

itsmeitscathy · 21/10/2014 22:14

In fairness, she's only Elizabeth the first here given that she is the first queen Liz of the uk (and Canada presumably) so it means nothing..?!

OraProNobis · 21/10/2014 22:28

It's symbolic. Just do it. Nobody's ever going to require you to subject any part of yourself to the Queen or her extended family.

Original poster
MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2014 22:53

Mixed bag! I do take citizenship seriously, otherwise I wouldn't care either way. And, I believe I genuinely do take most of the responsibilities of citizenship very seriously. It's this one thing. It's like I'm OK with the whole unwritten constitution except this one bit they want me to swear to. I even apologise when someone bumps into me.

It is important that I can come and go freely with DH and DD. And, I did choose to have a child with a Canadian (who BTW is also British) but at the time I didn't think, "should I have a child with this wonderful, fabulous man just in case that means that one day I might have to swear allegiance to someone I am already the subject of". Didn't cross my mind, oddly...

I am not wearing a colander. Nope.

OP posts:
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