Canada, Citizenship and The Queen, AIBU or WWYD?

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I've applied for Canadian citizenship. I'm taking my citizenship exam this week and there is a LOT of stuff in the study guide about the Queen. I'm a Republican. If I pass my exam and get to take my oath that will be,

I swear (or affirm)
That I will be faithful
And bear true allegiance
To Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second
Queen of Canada
Her Heirs and Successors
And that I will faithfully observe
The laws of Canada
And fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.

All great except the Queen stuff (and heirs and successors). My options as far as I can see are,

a) mumble through the Queen stuff. I will be in a room with people fleeing death and torture who will be taking this oath very seriously so I don't want to do this. Also, I think it's a bit shitty. There will be a Mountie there FGS.

b) affirm properly and give up my Republican leanings. Don't really want to.

c) don't get my citizenship (not going to happen. DD and DH are Canadians, I pay taxes, contribute and will be a 'good' Canadian, I want to vote).

d) some clever thing MN will come up with that will solve this for me.

WWYD?

Oh and you don't sound arsey Magic, eh.

"True allegiance" covers campaigning lawfully for constitutional change, IMO. It just means you can't launch an assassination attempt or engage in treason, which probably wasn't high on your to do list anyway.

"Her Successors" includes the democratically-elected Heads of State who will eventually come along; you are swearing allegiance to them as well as to the current monarch, so it's a commitment to working within the system rather than to the preservation of that system in aspic.

I think it just means you won't kill the Queen. She doesn't make laws and isn't going to stroll up to you to demand you walk her corgis. It's about accepting we have a monarch and accepting you will respect that. I'm against the house of Lords but I respect it's there and currently that's how it is.

You just say it. It doesn't mean anything.

I had to renounce all other citizenships during my oath ceremony. I just said it. It doesn't mean anything as actually one country can't force another to remove your citizenship.

Then once you are a citizen you can vote for change.

Can you say it in French?
Serious question which would make it far more mumbly and less real for me :)

Unless there's a means for doing so, I wouldn't jeopardise to make a point (and I'm pretty bloody republican). Mumble the words, campaign afterwards.

If you hold a British passport you're already 'a subject', so you're not making anything worse

It is indeed shit, but I wonder how many of your Canadian neighbours / family actually give a shiny shit about the queen.

I can say it in French. Actually if I didn't speak French, that would have worked. I could have said the words and not understood what I was saying!

I promise I won't kill her! No crossed fingers there.

I am Canadian - if you don't want to take the oath seriously, don't take the oath. There are those who would give everything they have to have the opportunity you do.

Perhaps you should have thought twice about seeking citizenship in a constitutional MONARCHY if you take issue with the monarchy part of it.

I would say it en français

It is a pleasure to become a Canadian with the others in your ceremony, who may originally been refugees or perhaps arrived with barely a cent to their names, and for whom becoming a Canadian citizen will change their life. Become a citizen, then make your protest in the months and years after, if you must. The citizenship ceremony itself is not the place to make your protest. I have been a proud Canadian since April 2011. I am not really a fan of monarchy, but the country I want to live in with my family requires that I swear allegiance, so I did. And to be honest, I haven't given it a second thought since.

CallMe that is precisely why I'm concerned about this. I AM taking the oath seriously. I know and work with refugees who I respect (as I said in my OP). That's why it's an issue. Having lived in a constitutional monarchy for most of my life, I've never before had to affirm allegiance. I didn't storm parliament in the UK, I don't see myself doing it here. However, I don't think that the Queen, by virtue of her birth (in another country FWIW), should have any power. Do you?

I've addressed why I am seeking citizenship here; my DD and DH. I pay taxes, I work with homeless people, aboriginal people, people with serious barriers here. I give money to charity. I volunteered in the correctional system with youth and for a non-profit working to prevent meth use. I house a homeless youth and her child in my home. I support local issues and care about local and national politics. I actually produced a Canadian with my body! Do you think I should really give up my request for citizenship based on not being comfortable swearing allegiance to a foreign, hereditary HoS?

Goodness no, I wouldn't make a point at the ceremony. That would be awful. I have been to a ceremony and it's very moving.

MrsTerryPratchett - of course you wouldn't. I apologize for suggesting you might! It's definitely an interesting dilemma, and I have been following the legal cases that have been in the news lately. I guess I think of it in the same way as saying the Lord's Prayer when I am in church. I can reel it off (as a PP said), but I am agnostic.

you do realise the queen has the right to dissolve Canadian parliament when she wants to, as she did in Australia in 1975.

While I am Canadian by birth, I have taken an oath not only of allegiance to the Queen, but of protection, as I am a retired member of the Canadian Forces.

Ultimately, the weight you put in the oath you pledge (or perhaps just recite) is up to you, but if you are that torn, perhaps permanent resident status might be your best option.

Which would work, CallMe except that I also believe in no taxation without representation. I believe in voting. I believe in being engaged in your country. I know people that don't bother voting or that remain PR forever. It's not for me. It also makes you quite vulnerable if abroad and something happens. Recently a lot of Canadians were repatriated by WestJet when they were trapped in a hurricane. Do I want to wave DD and DH off and stay if that happens? No.

Actually I think I just answered my own AIBU. I believe that being fully involved in Canadian life and having the same nationality as my DD and DH is more important than whether I believe that the Queen should be HoS.

Whomever asked if DD could be British. I actually looked into registering her in the UK (because she has Canadian nationality anyway) but Canada is one of very few countries where you can't do that.

'Do you think I should really give up my request for citizenship based on not being comfortable swearing allegiance to a foreign, hereditary HoS?'

Well, yes if it's that much of a problem for you. You have to do what they want in order to join the club, they want you to swear allegiance to Lizzie. They haven't asked you to produce a Canadian or house homeless people or give money to charity or volunteer. What they want is for you to say the oath in it's entirety. If you can't do that then you have to give up on the Canadian citizenship thing (at least until we overthrow the monarchy or they change the oath). I don't think the foreign, hereditary bit is relevant tbh, that's who they've chosen, you either accept it or not. If you don't accept it, you can't join the club.

They actually haven't had a referendum so they haven't chosen it. Not democratically. I think they probably would, though so that's sort of a moot point. In the citizenship stuff they do talk about volunteering, working, being part of your community.

It's not the Queen bit that is actually the problem for me. It's affirming something that I know I don't believe. Unlike some of the atheists and agnostics on this thread, I don't like to say the Lord's Prayer or similar. I hope to mostly mean what I say and say what I mean. However, I think I can get on board with the Queen as a figurehead for Canadian values rather than personally endorsing her.

No, not democratically, but someone at Canada HQ has chosen what to put in the oath. I don't think the Queen/Britain are forcing them to keep that bit in. If they wanted to leave/drop the Queen they could.

I think just looking at the Queen as a figurehead is probably the way forward. That's all she really is now anyway.

I'm Canadian, and have to say that other than meeting Prince Charles and being star-struck, I don't have a particular allegiance to Madge & Co.

It's the history, though, so I just nod along. Kind of like a well-meaning mother-in-law.

Congratulations btw!

Kind of like a well-meaning mother-in-law. Such a good analogy. I do have a mental image of her, sat at home with a Corgi on her lap, sipping a gin, saying, "MN is boring tonight and I don't give a monkey's whether MrsTP swears allegiance".

I also haven't passed the exam yet so it might all be a moot point. Who is Louis Riel again and what province is next to Manitoba?

Louis Riel was an early settler. He had boys with him. That's all I remember.

Saskatchewan.

...I lied. He founded Manitoba.

Saskatchewan is still right though.

And he still had boys with him.

I'm going now to study, otherwise I'm going to faaaiiilll.

Night all!