Has everyone seen the photo of the Archbishop of Canterbury presenting an award to Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi? If not, please have a look

[TheStateWeAreIn]

I don’t know what to say really, I just want as many women on MN as possible to see this picture.

Particularly Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi‘s wife.

There’s so much going on there.

(I know there’s another thread about the award and it’s subsequent withdrawal, I just wanted to start a thread to focus on the photo)

The only thing that is oppressive in all this are the women who seem to think it is their business to police how women from other cultures live their life. So what if they decide they want to wear the niqab instead of a T-shirt and leggings? Modesty is a very important virtue to some communities and if it helps them feel closer to God then why can't you just be happy for them?

Oh give it a rest, "Debbie".

Well thank God not everyone thought like you in the early years of the 20th century or we'd still be wearing whalebone corsets, girdles and three layers of petticoats. Dress reform is an important aspect of female liberation. People were outraged in the 20s and 30s when women started to wear trousers. If a critical mass of women start rejecting rigid dress codes, they disappear. This is why western women should support Muslim women in challenging this oppressive garb, not the fucking men who impose it.

Don't encourage him. He's not serious.

I suspect I’m feeding the troll here, but let’s hear it from all these women who are happy to wear the niqab.

If it’s truly a free choice, why are the women wearing it so rarely the ones speaking up to defend it?

Or do they feel unable or unwilling to come forward some reason…?

He's on another thread as "Debbie" telling a woman who's considering starting an affair to shag the guy and decide based on whether or not he's any good. It's annoying because that is kind of slightly funny, if a bit obvious and unoriginal, but here he just can't read the humour radar and he thinks it's funny because covered women and God.

hmm why wouldn't women who wear the niqab come on here to defend it, I wonder, why?

did any of you actually look at the OU course?

what about the grandmother who decided to adopt the niqab temporarily when she went to university?
what about the young women who wore it as a symbol of rejecting western materialism
what about the young turkish woman wearing a hijab at university in defiance of a ban?
what about the girls I met in the early 2000s who wore it defiantly to assert their identity (their families didn't approve) and vied with each other about who was doing it 'right' ?
Or the girl who overslept but could rush to the youth group in her PJs but the niqab on top?

or all the women who are wondering why western so called feminists are obsessed with what they wear when there are so much more important problems they face

People would have called him Justin. Our Vicars male and female were called by their first names. I didn't call him.anything personally I never met him. But apparently he was a' good bloke'. . No I think it's slightly different in the Catholic church though might have changed

Yes, why won't women who wear the niqab come on here to defend it?

Did any of you actually look at the OU course?

No and I resent my taxes going into pumping out this propaganda.

well if you don't read it you won't be able to judge whether or not its propaganda will you?

Dedicated it
Do you think they should refuse to be photo'd with women in Niqabs?

You posted that rather tedious cartoon which you said was from the OU course. That gives me an idea of what the course is about.

Its a No from me, I'm afraid.

Do you have any evidence that he “dedicated” it to her? He could have just said it when he took it in that case - like people dedicate awards to their mum/partner/whoever “without whom I would never have got this far” kind of thing.

I heard a journalist on the radio say that he couldn’t take anything from an unrelated woman’s hand. Do you know this to be wrong?

(I didnt make any comment about the generalities of being photographed alongside a woman in hijab because IMO it depends on the context. In this context it’s bizarre. Again, IMO.)

If you dedicate an award to someone deceased they can't own it. But if you dedicate it to your spouse and it's in the living room I think they can argue it's theirs.
DS slight asd got an award at school.and gave it to his friend who hadn't got one because ' it'll just sit round gathering dust'
His father was highly mortified and though that rude. I thought it was DS's version of kind.

You thought it was kind because it was a young person with ASD (and possibly because it was your own child 😂)
His father was far more in line with social norms though.

And I really don’t think your logic applies to this Imam anyway. Or are we doing the MN thing of declaring everyone to be ND?😬

I asked if you had any evidence that this was the case - do I take it that your evidence is your own DC, and nothing about this actual incident?

Sorry do you want a recording or something? I retired from MI5!
Seriously though.... I read it in one of the reports?
But a journalist saying he can't take it from an unrelated woman's hand is an opinion not based on fact isn't it? He's not saying that and the award was handed directly to him by Sarah Mulally?
Why would a Journalist say that, in relation to this, or you assert a journalist said it?
Whereas a journalist wouldn't speculate he dedicated it to his wife they'd be reporting what he said, it'd be a strange superfluous thing to make up.

I had a look at some of the OU, I'm not going to do the whole module. It seems to mostly be about women wearing the hijab. From the bits I looked at there was a mention of a niqab, a grandmother who wore it because it enabled her to attend university. There was (I think) a reference to further reading but no link and I cba seeking it. I don't know why grannie's style of dress should restrict her in this country. Would her father no let her leave the house otherwise? The bulk (I think all) the women referenced seemed to be wear the hijab from choice. I didn't notice anything from women who were forced to wear the niqab. I may have missed them, they may have been on a page I didn't look at.

TLDR It seemed a little one sided. Women who chose to wear the hijab are happy to wear the hijab. Who woulda thunk.

SORRY!! Too late to edit and I’ve just seen further on that it’s not the same imam.
Sorry for the fake news!!

I’ve read it.

What the module seems to imply is to avoid sweeping generalisations; that clothing alone does not automatically prove whether a woman is empowered or oppressed. That we tend to see our own social norms as "normal" or "liberated," while viewing other cultures' norms through a critical lens and that true empowerment involves choice and self-interpretation, rather than conforming to what outsiders deem "free."

What it doesn’t take into consideration is fundamental differences in culture and the treatment of women. In their countries of ancestry, freedom is relative. The interpretation of women’s freedom is clearly poles apart in the West.

What about when women are raised under pervasive patriarchal control, what looks like a "voluntary choice" to adopt restrictive traditional dress can actually be a rational strategy to avoid social ostracisation, physical harm, or family rejection?

Where to me the article slips in to propaganda is where it suggests that Western laws or public attitudes try to "save" them by banning the veil, it ironically strips away their agency in the exact same way patriarchal rules do, without taking into account that in society, it’s not always about the needs of the individual, it’s about the effect they have on others. Clearly, and judging by the strength of feeling and debate about niqabs and burkha stir up, as a community we are deeply uncomfortable with both the anonymity and dehumanisation of the wearer and our inability to interact with and read that individual’s emotions.

As the hijab is not a face covering, it shouldn't restrict identification and communication.

Exactly comparing a hair covering to one of the miscellaneous shrouds is like apples to oranges and irrelevant to this thread imo.

Interesting.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/thousands-back-petition-urging-archbishop-of-canterbury-to-resign.html

I imagine there’s a fair bit of sexism that’s driving the thousands of signatures. It’s not likely it was her decision to offer the award. The CofE probably thought they were doing their bit for interfaith relations. Not thinking through the wider implications or doing due diligence. Not uncommon for many organisations.

The Church of England absolutely did the right thing with regards to building interfaith relations as you said. Now might be a good chance to purge the residual elements of gammon from the flock, so to speak, and completely disavow anybody calling on her to resign.