Has everyone seen the photo of the Archbishop of Canterbury presenting an award to Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi? If not, please have a look

[TheStateWeAreIn]

I don’t know what to say really, I just want as many women on MN as possible to see this picture.

Particularly Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi‘s wife.

There’s so much going on there.

(I know there’s another thread about the award and it’s subsequent withdrawal, I just wanted to start a thread to focus on the photo)

Schools and the NHS should be free of niqabs. I’m glad that the NHS is, I’m surprised re the TA below.

I think British society is being challenged by these sorts of tensions. Freedom of religion is a cornerstone of a democratic society. Yet, how is that circle squared when society includes some who practice their religion in ways that treat women as lesser than, as second class people. Democracy is meant to ensure that women are citizens who have the same rights as men.

Freedom of belief is and should be treated as a ' secondary ' right, where it always takes seconds place to the right to freedom of speech and equality between men and women.

Im pretty sure the quran says to cover yourself respectfully not because men are lusting over you/sex mad/perverts but to avoid the male gaze. And also men are told to humble themselves by looking down.
That's the same thing! ' Women being told to cover themselves up ( they are only told to cover their hair and dress modestly not completely shroud themselves head to toe in black- the worst most punishing colour, especially in the places this garment originated from) to avoid the male gaze, rather than telling men not to stare at women. You say men are told to look down. Well how can that be policed? Is it? If you go to many Muslim countries there is an astonishing level of street harassment and again, women have to cover up ' to avoid the male gaze'

At first glance I didn’t see his wife in the picture. But I guess that’s the point. I will never understand why it’s ok for women to be made to dress in this way.

Yes agree it’s the wrong way round atm

@TiredShadows Thank you. That was a really interesting perspective.
We only often hear on Mumsnet from White Western women saying silly things like ' If only I could wear a Niqab' fetishising and fantasising about something that is used as a tool of impression in so many parts of the world. Willingly handing over freedoms others fought for just so they can look tolerant. I don't doubt they are the same women who fight for the rights of men to invade women's spaces.

I am still in the learning stages of learning islam. Ive joined a business where most of my clients/colleagues are muslim women so I wanted to learn for myself.

What i mean by men are told to lower their gaze, is to look away respectfully, regardless if its a muslim lady or not. And women cover to protect themselves not just from.muslim.men looking at them its all men. One lady said she wouldn't remove her hijab in the office when its all us ladies as a delivery guy/repair / service user could pop in any moment.
Its more like not allowing men to see your body shape/figure and hair..
Men naturally do look and turn their heads at women, its a fact.

I’ve never quite understood though- what is wrong with opposite sex everyday interaction? What is wrong with observing each other? What is wrong with attraction? All perfectly normal human (and other species!) behaviour. what is specifically the issue that lowering gaze and covering up trying to solve?

From my understanding, men and women who are non related should not shake hands out of respect and honour. Instead you will see them putting their hands on their chest and bowing their head respectfully.

If men did the simple thing of lowering their gaze then women wouldn’t have to cover themselves head to toe in fabric. One is much easier and freeing than the other. As usual it is women that have to make the most effort, avoid places etc.

I absolutely agree that freedom of belief must take second place to women's rights. And as I said, I am a S Asian woman of Hindu origin. Now, I would call myself a secular with a few Hindu customs which I pick and choose.

There's a performative- often misogynistic- element in Hinduism too, and in all religions. I firmly believe that religion was invented by men to gain access to women and money.

The poster saying that on this thread is trolling as several people have already pointed out.

Men can alter their behaviour instead. They could restrict their vision if that’s what they’re after.

Yes - why don’t men wear special glasses with blinkers like horses have? Could it be because it’s uncomfortable and also oppressive to be told what to wear?

Ridiculous! I don’t want the postman/the plumber/colleague/dcs’ friends, Uncle Tom Cobley and all looking down when we’re conversing -bizarre!

We are equals. Women are equals.

Also, if it’s just modest covering, why is it always black? Why do elderly women have to comply? And why little girls? Is the argument that a five-year-old and a 90-year-old are included in attracting lustful gazes?

In the Muslim North African country I grew up in, elderly women often went about unveiled. I believe it’s the fear of sexuality, of adultery and loss of control over women’s reproduction and a man raising another man’s child. It’s ingrained in Semitic societies, just read the Old Testament, it’s full of adulterous women being stoned to death outside the city walls.

Absolutely this.

Wearing a niqab ISN’T about gaining freedom from unwelcome male attention, it’s the exact opposite. It’s about assertion of male ownership, it’s about reducing women to mere chattels and property to be only viewed by the “owner” at his convenience.

It doesn’t make women safer, it makes them more of a none person and therefore more forgettable and anonymous. The naivety of those western women that think this might be empowering, is gobsmacking.

This might sound like a strange analogy, but I hope it makes sense? Many years ago I remember talking to a female survivor of Auschwitz. She believed she actually survived because she was attractive and stood out. Those that attempted to blend in became faceless and therefore dispensable and forgettable. This is what the niqab does, it intentionally takes away women’s agency and their individuality. I also believe it’s because many men are actually frightened and intimated by women and this is the only way they feel they can assert their dominance by psychologically isolating them.

Someone said up thread that we are now so scared of being called racists, we are unable to call out abuse and blatant subjugation. This is spot on and we should definitely follow other nations in banning full face coverings. Now would be the ideal time whilst the legislation re masks in public in being carried through.

I didn't notice at first either. I struggle to believe this is the liberal enlightened western modern world.

It's also making women responsible for men who cant control themselves.

@EasternStandard the women could lead the men along with blinkers on couldn't they.

Yes, it's crazy. We have imported the most extreme forms of Islam. And then we're terrified to call it out due to very real fears of being called racist or Islamophobic, which can end a person's career.

And so it becomes normalised and grows. I expect to see a lot more women and girls wearing the niqab in the UK as time goes on, especially as they start moving from other European countries where opposition to Islam is growing.

Look at Afghanistan. It’s extremism.

This directive emerged through the Taliban’s Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice. A Taliban cleric publicly stated that when outside, a woman "may only look with one eye" while the rest of her face and the other eye must remain completely covered

Yes, the primary sourcefor this specific "one eye" reporting comes from a recorded speech delivered by a Taliban Ministry official. This recording was intercepted, verified, and translated by prominent Afghan human rights journalists, lawyers, and regional research groups, including Natiq Malikzada and gender-justice tracking databases. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The credibility of this report is rooted in how it perfectly tracks with documented, official laws verified by global bodies like the United Nations and the BBC.

Yes, the arguments in support of these garments are completely absurd.

Absolutely, all the jumbled ideas around Islamic covering for women are basically saying the body is bad and shameful. At its core it's really archaic, absurd and sinister.