Has everyone seen the photo of the Archbishop of Canterbury presenting an award to Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi? If not, please have a look

[TheStateWeAreIn]

I don’t know what to say really, I just want as many women on MN as possible to see this picture.

Particularly Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi‘s wife.

There’s so much going on there.

(I know there’s another thread about the award and it’s subsequent withdrawal, I just wanted to start a thread to focus on the photo)

This is not respectful. If a Muslim man in a western country would shake hands with a man, he should shake hands with a woman as well. By only shaking hands with other men, he is showing disrespect to the woman and to the country he has chosen to live in.

Of course, he won't get called out on it. There are too many useful idiots who think all this is fine and dandy. And another bunch of people who are terrified of being called racist or Islamophobic.

That's how Sara Sharif's family were able to beat her to death. Because nobody had the guts to say 'Why the hell is a ten year old wearing a hijab in the UK?'

Mark my words, we will have sectarianism in Britain before long. City states (eg Birmingham) with dress codes/dog bans etc. This is happening in Minnesota.

Yes, I agree, that's the way it's going. All this kow-towing to Islam, like the idiotic Archbishop, will make us a magnet for extremists. Maybe she'll be happy then, when Christianity has been replaced by Islam in the UK, especially in our cities.

Not just kowtowing to Islam. Recently there was a " Ganga ( Ganges) aarti' on the Thames close to me in Greenwich. An aarti is a Hindu ceremony of prayer, usually at the holy river Ganges.
Open to all men and women of every religion, and nothing thrown in the river, but I question why public displays of religion are necessary.

Many Hindus question these recent performative rituals in public. It was object of ridicule on social media within the larger community, so we are not being racist! Hinduism used to be quiet and confined to our temples. I detest these public displays.

People bow to the king and its considered respectful.
If a Muslim woman doesnt want to touch a man she doesnt have to, instead she can just bow her head and say no thank you. Its not the end of the world. No one ended up dead in a morgue ...

why do muslim women wear hijab

Muslim women wear the hijab as a way to practice their faith, show modesty, and express their personal identity. 1]

Religious Faith and Obedience
Worship: Many women wear the hijab to obey God (Allah) and follow Islamic guidelines found in religious texts.
Spiritual Connection: Putting on the headscarf each day is a mindful choice that aligns the wearer with her core values. 1, 2]

Modesty and Dignity
Hayaa (Modesty): Islam values modesty for both men and women. The headscarf is an outer sign of this inner value.
Focus on Character: Covering the hair helps shift attention away from physical beauty and toward a person's intellect, skills, and character. 1, 2, , 5]

Identity and Personal Choice
Cultural Pride: The hijab is often worn as a proud symbol of belonging to the global Muslim community.
Empowerment: Many women feel the scarf gives them a sense of personal boundary, privacy, and control in public spaces.
Diverse Practices: Not all Muslim women wear the hijab. The choice is deeply personal and varies based on family, culture, and individual journeys.

Im not a muslim but still learning about it. But that's what Google told me.

I also just whatsapped a couple ladies from my workplace , one said that she wears it because simply we are commanded to in our faith, its a form of dress code of a muslim woman and an identity and I dont want to be objectified by men. Men see a woman in hijab and are less inclined to make comments on her figure, looking at her bum when she walks etc.

Another said she wears because its her life, she loves headscarf and loose linen trousers and loose shirt, a lot of women dress this way and its my life now, I dont want men enjoying my hair and looking at me and instead id rather be covered and have men not ogling me up and down ...

As for the opposite sex mingling and engaging they both agreed that there is no need to seek out communication or friendships with the opposite gender, that there are plenty of women to talk to and admire and speak about all topics. However, both agreed that minimal polite communication with doctors and teachers when necessary is fine, but handshaking and general chit chat is not permissible in their faith as there's no need to strike up a conversation with a guy at the bus stop or whatever er however if the guy at the bus stop asks fo you know when the bus is there no harm in saying oh yeshz I saw it go past the other side 5 minutes ago, should be due soon is fine and in a polite tone.

Muslims are encouraged in their holy book to be kind, polite, treat people fairly and equally, kindness to parents, elderly, treat both non Muslim neighbour and muslim neighbour equally, to help the poor and be kind to animals, not waste water or food, to give charity, be patient, not backbite or slander or gossip, to not deceive or spread rumours.

Im still learning and find it very interesting because of what the media portrays or the ignorance of what people say based on one bad apple. If a man commits a murder in islam its seen as a big sin. Im gradually reading the quran and trying to understand more because of my muslim colleagues all of which are super nice and sweet to me and im a Christian non practicing.

It’s not respect for the woman when they would shake hands with a man in the same circumstances - or are they lacking respect for the man they shake hands with?

It’s a hypersexualisation of everyday interactions.

That may have been fine - sensible, even - among 7th-century tent-dwelling nomads where privacy was hard to come by, but in today’s world the people who lose out from it are women, and only women. Because they are the ones who are forced by these rules to live hidden away, either physically or by wearing portable purdah.

Never the men. When you see a family at the beach, as I saw many this past summer, with the men in shorts and the women fully covered up, do you really think the women would choose to spend a day in the sun without being able to cool off in the water if they could? They usually only ever paddle, presumably because they know their clothes will stay soaking wet until they dry off naturally. I don’t expect wrapping a towel around a burka and veil has much effect.

But of course they have to be there because you couldn’t expect the men to look after the children or hand out drinks and snacks. That wouldn’t be respectful. 🙄

I think most of us know this already. But a hijab is rather different from a niqab, which is what we are discussing.

As for being nice to others and not committing murder, all religions say this. Nobody actually follows it, least of all men!

Muslims are encouraged in their holy book to be kind, polite, treat people fairly and equally, kindness to parents, elderly, treat both non Muslim neighbour and muslim neighbour equally, to help the poor and be kind to animals, not waste water or food, to give charity, be patient, not backbite or slander or gossip, to not deceive or spread rumours.

Im still learning and find it very interesting because of what the media portrays or the ignorance of what people say based on one bad apple. If a man commits a murder in islam its seen as a big sin. Im gradually reading the quran and trying to understand more because of my muslim colleagues all of which are super nice and sweet to me and im a Christian non practicing

we aren't talking about the Hijab or loose trousers and tops we are talking about the Niqab which is a completely dehumanising garment. Maybe you should go to the newspapers with your revelation that they are telling lies about women being stoned to death or not being allowed to speak and that perhaps tell them that it's 'one bad apple'? Murder is ' a big sin' in all countries. Except in some Islamic countries where state sponsored murder of women for showing their hair is apparently fine.

You don’t have to bow to the king or risk the disapproval of your local vicar if you don’t.

The point is; in western society it’s considered polite to engage and to refuse the offer of a handshake is actually pretty rude - even by saying, “no thank you” which almost makes it worse.

Exactly the same way in the Far East it’s considered impolite to show the soles of your feet, or eat with your left hand or using the thumbs up sign.

If we are going to be sensitive to other cultures, it is also important they are sensitive to ours. I make a conscious effort overseas to respect local customs and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect the same in return.

Also agree strongly with others; the hijab is of no issue, the niqab certainly is.

As a SEN teacher I can say with absolute confidence that what @ragdollout is suggesting happens in her child's SEN setting is complete bullshit.

So much of our work with children with additional needs centres around emotional regulation and identifying emotions in ourselves and those of others. How we reposnd to our own emotions and what emotions displayed by those around us mean and the appropriate ways to respond to them.
This is simply not possible when the only part of someone's body you can see is their eyes. Particularly when that person is supposed to be a trusted and safe adult.

Not a single one of the 24 children in our setting would be able to understand what on earth was going on if they were presented with a completely covered person, seeing only their eyes.
It would confuse and upset them, and they would not be able to draw on any of the skills they had been taught to read the emotions and intent of those around them.
These skills are taught to allow them to participate more easily in society and most importantly - keep themselves safe.

Yes this makes much more sense.

I understand that you have a financial incentive to go along with all this as you said you work for a business where most of your colleagues and clients are Muslim women (I hope it's not public or charity sector).

But really these ideas are better suited to 7th century Arabia than to 21st century Britain.

Does anyone know if this award was entirely the current Arch B's doing? She's not been in post all that long, it's possible it's a legacy from before she started. The other thing is the optics are so bad, not least the date of the award, it almost seems like sabotage. I also wonder if when the man's faceless, nameless wife appeared like that what would have been a diplomatic way of dealing with it. It should have been anticipated. The situation should never have arisen.

Sarah Mullally can't entirely escape criticism for this. She takes responsibility for not doing her own due diligence. She shouldn't, if that's what she did, entirely trust subordinates or just let things coast because the previous incumbent waved it through.

Didn’t she ask, “Who is this I’m meeting?” The slightest Google would have revealed what sort of individual he was. And as for condoning that garb for a woman - the AofC is a silly fool.

You could have given more context in your OP not everyone would catch the news: that's unless of course you were trying to misdirect?

I’ve got a beautiful knitted top and trousers in baggy organic cotton that does this AND allows me to see where I’m going, which is a bonus.

@Fedupoffeelingthisway111 very good for learning all about the cultural practices of your workmates. I hope they are just as eager to learn and be respectful about ours.

Ok, so every man is ogling women’s hair. I can guarantee that my hair today is driving no man wild. And all men are lusting after every female’s body from 5 years old till 90? Yep. And surely a big tent and full face covering alludes to the delights within? They’re still a woman.

I do agree it seems very odd. If she's told she's doing an award for a prominent religious leader she's not going to be responsible for background check - that's going to be someone else's responsibility. Most likely at some level involve a safeguarding check which could only be a police check.
Actually gives rise to the issue of how DBs checks are enacted in religions. You can bet Sarah Mullaly herself has had a very thorough one, and there would be a person in the church responsible.
Thankfully no disaster has occurred and hopefully the systems can be tightened up.
It's positive the church can recognise this error and respond rather than all the doubling down in the past.

when just looking at someone turn into being objectifying them?

how do you know if someone is looking at your bum? I would have a clue if someone is looking at me from behind and even if they were what harm is caused to me?

observing each other is a normal human behaviour. Inappropriate comments are not and should be called out, but in my life I have never routinely ascribed unpleasant meaning to an ordinary everyday interaction with someone from the opposite sex.

One thing on this I don’t think little girls need to be part of the idea they need to cover their hair otherwise men will ogle at it.

I was trying to phrase the OP so that thread kept to the topic of the photo and women’s rights, and was certainly not trying to misdirect but I accept your criticism that more context would have been better.

I stayed in a Devon town in the summer in a holiday let in a suburban area. One morning I came out of the house and the first people I saw were a man walking along the street with two small children.

The man was a few paces behind the children, walking along with his eyes glued to his phone, head down and phone up in front of him. The children were very young, hard to say, but a boy of about 6 and a girl a bit smaller. The boy had on a t shirt and shorts, the girl, a dress and a cover over her head completely covering her face and upper body.

I'm so sad this has happened to Britain.

Yes, this is where the ideas around covering for modesty go from being merely absurd to downright dodgy.

For me it is his shame at the first place.

If he can't make sure his wife doesn't have to /doesn't feel that she has to "chose it", he is just a loser in my eyes.

I kind of accept adults voluntarily covering their hair, but face covering is not reasonable in Europe.