Has everyone seen the photo of the Archbishop of Canterbury presenting an award to Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi? If not, please have a look

[TheStateWeAreIn]

I don’t know what to say really, I just want as many women on MN as possible to see this picture.

Particularly Hafiz Muhammad Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi‘s wife.

There’s so much going on there.

(I know there’s another thread about the award and it’s subsequent withdrawal, I just wanted to start a thread to focus on the photo)

even at work? Even at a formal do? It is interesting that some people think that in society some people now believe there is never inappropriate dress for the occasion. I don’t think on a beach a women should be told to cover up as context is important but at my office job I would expect tot be told it is inappropriate. As would a man wearing Speedos for example.

I don’t think the women in bikinis vs women in niqab analogy works. Wearing the niqab is seen as something more moral, more righteous and encouraged / required in some religious sects and cultural groups. Wearing a bikini is literally just a choice of swimwear worn at the pool or by a beach, with no moral connotations, and does not prevent bikini wearers from participating in society.

Imagine if someone started a religion which decided that certain skin colour, say dark skin, is so beautiful that it is more moral for it to be covered. And so all the dark skinned people start to cover because it is encouraged by the religion. The coverings are cumbersome and faces can’t be seen, and so they have difficulty playing sport or participating in normal things like riding bikes, or even conversing with strangers. But all the fair skinned people aren’t covered. Just visualise that world. That would be insanely offensive, racist and upsetting. I expect the religion would be deemed a cult and swift action would be taken to stop this practice. BUT it is ok when we are dealing with women? It’s not ok.

Irrelevant- it is either acceptable to police what women wear or it isn’t.

being religious doesn’t make anyone special that they should get differing treatment.

It's especially inappropriate here as the AB of C's husband isn't present.

I can't help thinking it was all about something the BBC said earlier - that he wouldn't take the award from a woman. I suspect his wife was there to do that.

If so, that would mean that her presence was the "solution" that had been found by the CofE to his disgust for women and that they all knew that this was the only way he would deign to accept it.

It always makes me cringe when I see western women journalists wearing a headscarf in Muslim countries. The locals will all be looking at them thinking “why are you wearing that, you are not a Muslim”.

@BananaPeels

Just to be clear, my view is that the niqab should be banned in the UK. I am comfortable with that.

I think many feel their religion is validated by it. "This shows that westerners also understand the importance of obeying Islam:"

That’s an interesting point.

@MyrtleLion
Most schools have a dress code and most Academy Chains tell staff what they can and can’t wear. I imagine the same is true of many organisations.
All this stuff about human rights and clothing. There are lots of controls about what we wear.
Take a look at school kids in uniform. The trouble with burqas , niqabs and hijabs is that they can be used to hide and oppress women and girls ( Sara Sharif). School uniform is about practicality.

How would a ban be enforced? I’m not sure that criminalising or penalising women who could already be vulnerable is the way to go. What if it meant they just never leave the house? I’d rather see more resources for supporting women to leave marriages safely but can’t imagine that will be happening any time soon.

Seeing as she wasn’t even referenced in the giving of the award, I’m assuming she’s not allowed to voice anything. Regardless, the man is a tool anyway, which is why his award has been withdrawn. Waste of time his wife being present, and can’t imagine it was his idea….

I’ve lived in a few Muslim countries. They honestly don’t expect western non Muslim women to be wearing a headscarf. I believe it’s not even required in Saudi now. Even during Ramadan in one of the stricter countries all that was required was reasonably “modest” dress. No head covering needed.

I didn't say they expected it: I said they would feel it was a validation of the practice.

Different thing.

But there’s nothing in the Quran that specifically says women should cover their faces. It’s just been interpreted that way…..by men.

Doolalley is an utter disgrace. There's no place for women to be required to cover themselves up in this country. It is dehumanising. And the CoE dehumanises the woman even more by calling her 'wife' rather than her name.

To be honest, Doolalley could do with a head covering - her hair is always an unslightly mess.

I hate the niqab and the burka and also the hijab, but Western women telling Muslim women they can’t wear it when we have no idea of the dynamic behind this woman wearing it is imposing our will in the same way as a Muslim man telling a British woman to cover up if she’s wearing short shorts or a bikini is imposing his will

But you can have a Western Muslim woman who does not wear any coverings. Generally in the West no-one knows what religion anyone is, because we don't care and there are no outwardly symbolic features Extreme coverings are from another culture and are not acceptable in the West. If you are in the West, be culturally appropriate. Do not cover up.

I had a holiday in Oman last year and I can honestly say - apart from a couple of misogynists frolicking in the hotel pool whilst their wives sweltered in full niqab under a tree - I have seen more strict adherents to the full Monty on the streets of London than I did on the streets of Muscat.

Reading back through this afternoon’s posts, am I really correct in understanding that the faceless female was there in order to accept the award on behalf of the misogynist as he couldn’t receive the paperwork from someone of the opposite gender, or have I misread it?! If so, that should have in itself alone been a reason for not engaging with him, well before the revelations about whose side he really is on.

These’ clothes ‘ should be illegal in the uk. They’re beyond ridiculous. The suffragettes didn’t fight for our rights to have us blindly walking into such a shit show.

@WinterGold

off topic but Oman is one of my favourite countries. It’s strange when we seem to have reached the point that we seem to have “stricter” Muslims in the Uk than in some actual Muslim countries.

Yes, I think the UK has imported the most extreme form of Islam, especially from Pakistan. This could be our future so we'd better get used to it. I'm sure useful idiots like Sarah Mulally would be delighted.

100%.

It is a beautiful country and the people - both male and female - were open and friendly. The only time I was expected to cover my head (with only a very loose scarf) was when we visited the Sultan Qaboos Mosque, which I don’t have a problem with as that is a place of worship, and I would be respectful of customs in any religion’s holy places.

Otherwise in the souks and walking around the streets, it was mostly men dressed in white dishdashas that were the only alternative attire from Western clothing - and they make total practical sense in the heat.

I fear that as a result of other European countries banning the burqa, the UK will be seen as a safe haven for those wishing to practise an extreme form of the religion.

I sincerely doubt it.

Wearing full face coverings is often painted as a choice the women make. Fair enough. Lots probably do want to as this is how they were brought up. But if you read any woman's account of how difficult her life is should she stop wearing full Islamic dress then you realise that choice is a bit of an illusion. It can be actively dangerous sometimes. How free is it then?