Esther Rantzen "too frail" to travel to Switzerland (Dignitas)

[ItWasnaMeGuv]

Hopefully a family member of friend will take her and she can get her wish.

How about offering assisted dying only to those patients who are expected to live for less than a month and whose suffering can’t be alleviated by hospice care?

It is unbelievably cruel that you have to be well enough to undertake the journey unaided, which for most people means ending their life when they are still relatively healthy.

those advocating for “good palliative care” instead. Yes of course it should be an option, but in many of the cancer deaths I’ve seen the pain relief required to make the person comfortable means they are unconscious for their final days/weeks and family are just waiting for days on end for their final breath. There are no lovely quality bedside moments or memories being made, just unrelenting misery for the family waiting for them to die. Can anyone explain to me what the problem would be in them or even their family choosing when the death will be?

Just to clarify @38thparallel - several UK people have been arrested for assisting assisted suicide from memory . I can't remember who they were but found these on the internet with a very brief search

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63599107
www.dignityindying.org.uk/news/dignity-in-dying-statement-on-latest-assisted-suicide-prosecution-figures/
spuc.org.uk/u-k-assisted-suicide-arrest-a-stark-reminder-of-the-value-of-life/
www.liveaction.org/news/uk-man-arrested-travel-assisted-suicide

You can't have family choosing when others die!!
Do you really think that other people wouldn't abuse this?

I mean really? Abusive husband decides he's going to deny his dying wife's wish to see a loved one one last time and decides for her that she's to die today?

Sorry but your naivety on this particular point is annoying.

Assisted dying only works if everybody is good and well-meaning. They are not.

You do you, but you are wrong, however vehemently you push your agenda.

A better bill would have passed and I would have accepted that as the will of the majority. If this badly flawed bill had passed because MPs were voting on the principle, rather than the substance I would have been very unhappy about it.

But I have always felt instinctively opposed to AD. I just cannot get past the idea that pressure to die would be too much.

FIL died of Alzheimers. It was a long, horrible illness and 80yo MIL who had health problems of her own had a terrible time trying to look after him. It was far too long before he could go into a care home where he was well looked after until he died in his sleep.

DH is terrified of going the same way. He says he would want AD if he developed Alzheimers. I completely understand how he feels.

So if I developed Alzheimers I would worry that DH and DS were going to go through what MIL did with FIL. But what if I didn't want to agree to die at some point in the future? DH would never, ever expect or ask me to consider AD but I would feel pressure to die to spare my family.

I'm sure many people feel guilty for living in that situation and I would too but life is the most precious thing there is. It has to be protected above everything else. A close family member took her own life and I will never recover from that.

At the moment the law protects us from the pressure to die if we feel we are a burden. As soon as assisted dying is made legal under whatever circumstances, there will be a choice to die and so there will be a choice to continue to live - maybe when others, or even you yourself think you shouldn't.

@StSpiridian
Just to clarify - several UK people have been arrested for assisting assisted suicide from memory . I can't remember who they were but found these on the internet with a very brief search

Apologies - I should’ve checked first.

Most longer deaths are like this is vicous scary and fucking cruel. Wicked. I had to sit with df for three weeks as he slowly drowned in fluid in his lungs with heart failure .
It was horrific and no pumping drugs whilst the body slowly shuts down isn't the answer.

How many years do we wait whilst we get more hospitals , no corridor or even ward drying ( three men died on the wards whiltst df was dying) no relatives and some shocking nursing .
Why ?

The NHS can't do or afford anything so better end of life care is simply not a reality.

Yes it's really naive. here are excerpts from campaign groups online about why the Bill isn't safe in its current form

Groups opposing assisted dying include Disability Rights UK, Care Not Killing, and Our Duty of Care, which advocate for better palliative care and emphasize the risks to vulnerable individuals if assisted dying is legalized. These organizations argue that legalizing assisted dying could undermine trust in healthcare and devalue the lives of disabled and terminally ill people.

from Womens aid
Coercive control can significantly impact individuals considering assisted dying, particularly those in abusive relationships, as they may be pressured into making such decisions by their abuser. Safeguards in assisted dying legislation are crucial to protect vulnerable individuals from being coerced into ending their lives.

So if I developed Alzheimers I would worry that DH and DS were going to go through what MIL did with FIL. But what if I didn't want to agree to die at some point in the future? DH would never, ever expect or ask me to consider AD but I would feel pressure to die to spare my family.

My mother had dementia for several years and watching that intelligent, capable woman decline was tragic. I don’t think she had any quality of life as she used to cry a lot.
I do not wish to suffer from advanced dementia and nor do I want to put my children through it. I don’t think Dignitas will take people with dementia and I don’t know what the alternative is. Maybe an overdose of fentanyl but I’ve got no idea where to get it.

I never understand why the concept of choosing how you want to die when you know you are terminally ill and you no longer want to suffer is such an issue for some people.

To me it is just cruelty to want to keep people alive at all cost and against their wishes.

There is a huge problem with this and it is because in reality a choice requires a much earlier death than is necessary. It is a problem which the assisted dying bill fails to address because it requires the patient to have capacity to administer the drug.

Most people want to enjoy the life they have whilst it has a good quality and enjoy time they have left with loved ones.

The start of the end of life terminal state is often when a person slips into a semi-comatose state. That is when assisted dying is of most critical importance. You have some who is definitely dying who is usually suffering, given much pain relief if they can tolerate it (one of the worst sounds is someone in severe pain who is allergic to morphine and opiates), and has distraught relatives watching them dying sometimes over weeks without food or drink. There is no lawful way to end that suffering

That is when assisted dying would be an unarguable benefit but nothing is addressing this in any assisted dying legislation because the person cannot administer the drugs themselves at that point.

This is the cruelty of the system. Pets are treated better tbh.

The same problem in a slightly different way applies to places like Dignitas and Pegasos in Switzerland. One is that you have to be fit enough to get there alone ( if someone travels with you and helps you, they could be prosecuted for unlawful assistance of murder).The other is that you have to be able to administer the drug yourself. Both again mean to use them you have to decide to end your life much earlier than nature would decree.

It's all very sad and in a way it's a shame that there isn't more informed debate in Parliament and greater input from people who have spent time on geriatric wards in hospital or in hospices experiencing how horrific end of life can be for some people.

Dignitas will only accept people with a terminal illness which I don't think includes dementia. The other AD organisation in Switzerland is Pegasos who will take people who do not have a terminal illness. But with both of these the person must have mental capacity and medical proof of this. So if you've already got dementia it may be too late unless you are in the very early stages.

Also it's possible to do an Advanced Decision where you leave instructions to medical people that you don't want to be kept alive artificially if your mental capacity has gone. Anyone can do this at any time.

Agree with @5MinuteArgument Also it's possible to do an Advanced Decision where you leave instructions to medical people that you don't want to be kept alive artificially if your mental capacity has gone. Anyone can do this at any time.

• for anyone interested, here's the Compassion in Dying link which explains the form and helps you consider what you want. You then get it signed by someone else and give a copy to your Dr for your medical records. It's legally binding in England (not in Scotland I think?)

https://compassionindying.org.uk/

I found it very helpful when a loved one was dying to know what they wanted, so have done one myself as you never know what the future holds ! It's free, and you can review it etc when needed...

I don't mind admitting that I was researching how to end a life painlessly and calmly in the last year of my mum's life. She wanted to die. I wanted to help her. I strongly believe in assisted dying. It's sickening to keep people alive against their will. How dare we!

Procurement of fatal doses of certain drugs is an option surely. I mean, if the person is capable of swallowing them. Therein lies the issue I suppose.

I think I'd be stashing away some stuff. But I might not be capable of self administering it I suppose. It's an option though at a late stage of a terminal illness. Isn't it?

I feel that often the morphine is upped close to the end to hasten things in a medical/palliative setting. I'm thinking of my own dear sister. She was at home, in pain but on pain patches and home palliative and did ok. She went to hospice for treatment of some distressing symptoms and was put on a syringe driver of morphine. Dead in two days. RIP But who knows? All I know is that she was out of her misery, bless her soul.

Also I believe that once someone is actually dying it is known. Hospitals or relatives will contact those who may want one last visit or whatever. So they know. And then it’s that waiting often for days and days. Until the inevitable. I don’t know why in those circumstances if the individual had already put in place instructions (ie it’s not for others to decide) they could not be helped to die. As they are doing anyway. If they don’t want that, then they would be cared for during end of life as it is now. Well I do know - shipman? Anyway I think at the very least this should be an option.

I think that “slipping away gently”or “peacefully” is probably rarer than people think, just people don’t really want to thi k about it, or only find out during being with someone dying, It’s not like they show in films, sadly. Though I am not criticising the palliative care nurses and others for this.

Also it's possible to do an Advanced Decision where you leave instructions to medical people that you don't want to be kept alive artificially if your mental capacity has gone. Anyone can do this at any time.

Dh and I have both done this, but afaik it only means you won’t be put on antibiotics or resuscitated if you are very poorly.
People can have dementia for ages without needing antibiotics.

@Ashmol
I think I'd be stashing away some stuff

Where would you get it from?

Where does anyone get illicit drugs these days? A dealer!

Sorry to be lighthearted in this thread with such a difficult ethical topic, but I have seen terminal suffering first hand several times in my immediate family.

My mother had an enormous tumour on her neck as she had lymphoma and she wanted to die as the tumour was restricting her breathing. Something I have never forgiven myself for as I went home and she died during the night. Seeing her like that has given me lifelong trauma and I have been diagnosed with PTSD and am on medication for life. That's what those Self righteous MPs have done.

My father died in Nz where both assisted suicide and euthanasia are both legal as of 2021. The palliative care he had from the hospital palliative care team working with his GP was so good it didn’t even cross our minds to talk about assisted dying - nor did he. He died of metastatic cancer but in his own home with home visits from his (free public health) gp, oxygen tank, adjustable bed, morphine pump and other aids all provided within 24 hrs of being ordered. If I had a similar diagnosis I would move back to Nz : not necessarily for the assisted dying but for the linked up compassionate palliative care!

Yes, that's why I believe in AD for those that choose it. But an Advanced Decision is better than nothing.

It is awful. If the UK could provide perfect care, with private rooms and unlimited drugs, well it would still be the person's choice. But what I've seen people go through in care homes and on hospital wards. Some people fought for abortion rights, yet we see no protests for people being left in agony for literally years?

Yes. And not all suffering can be relieved. Difficulty breathing isn't helped by pain relief, for example. Why do we torture some people by insisting that they carry on living when they don't want to? I knew someone who kept asking, "Can I die now?" but no, she was forced to carry on suffering. That's cruel.

Once again, the proposed law is only supposed to apply to people with six months to live. So many comments on this thread seem desirous of extending it to include pretty much anyone who is in pain or suffering. Is it any wonder that those of us who are concerned about what this bill might mean for those of us who are severely disabled when people are already trying to erode the supposed safe-guards before the bill has even passed. I wouldn't like some of the posters on here to be the final arbiters of whose life is or is not worth living, as some attitudes are most chilling indeed.