Esther Rantzen "too frail" to travel to Switzerland (Dignitas)

[ItWasnaMeGuv]

Hopefully a family member of friend will take her and she can get her wish.

The logical conclusion of your viewpoint is that no one would ever do anything in case something bad happened. Again, assisted dying offers a compassionate choice to people in a horrible situation which you are using anecdotes to undermine- yes, sometimes there will be abuses (which I presume is what you are talking about) what that is true of everything in life- bad things happen and we don’t shut everything down. Your fear and objections are disproportionate & unreasonable.

Have you ever sat with someone you loved dying a long, drawn pit, painful death that they did not want, and which they asked to be relieved from, but had no way of helping them? I challenge anyone to go through that and maintain such a callous attitude.

II isn’t straightforward! It can take well over the 3 days that people talk about. It depends on your health and the weather. There’s a difference between the natural process when someone is dying and stops eating and drinking and choosing to end your life by stopping hydration. It can easily take a week. Your mouth gets very dry, so you can’t talk, your throat, nose and lips dry up, you get confused and it takes grim determination.

The elderly relative of a friend did it.

Straightforward is not accurate.

But this is happening already in the Netherlands and in Belgium for example.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/16/dutch-woman-euthanasia-approval-grounds-of-mental-suffering

In Belgium assisted dying has been provided for people with eating disorders, autism, and depression. And there only needs to be one month between the initial request and the end by AD.

Also minors are now able to access assisted dying in Belgium but not for mental health reasons. .

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1dpwg1lq9yo

Because it is not relevant to the bill that was only for the terminally ill with less than six months to live. It was never ever going to apply to those with dementia. And it’s arguments like that which helped the bill fail. It really does make me furious. Those who wanted AD for dementia needed to start their own campaign, not piggyback onto this one and ruin it for us.

No, it isn’t. I know of someone who did this with terminal throat cancer. It took over two weeks of suffering and was awful for her family too.

Is therr not some means by which someone who has made that decision can be kept pain free while they carry it out, with morphine or even anaesthetic?

My granny stopped eating but she couldn't bear stopping drinking because she found it so unpleasant, though she did drink very little from that point. It also took weeks and was horrendous to watch.

I think it shocks people how long dying can take. I don’t think many of us are really prepared. I know that if I was the person dying I would absolutely hate being watched and putting others through it. I would honestly wish to go to sleep gently (dare I say it though it’s what I feel, like all my precious dogs did, so respectfully, kind and dignified). I too know people who have sat well over a week with loved ones. I honestly don’t get why this has to be as at this point, there is no possibility of any other ending than death.

No you’re quite right, you should be able to end the life of your parent as soon as they make toileting messes, smell bad and are frightening the children. We’d do the same for a dog.

I don’t think you realise that your post sends chills down my spine. It’s mostly about the bother of caring for a parent at end of life and not about what the parent feels or wants.

The post I responded to was detailing methods of suicide.

The logical conclusion of your viewpoint is that no one would ever do anything in case something bad happened.

No that’s an illogical extreme and not at all representative of my viewpoint.

Have you ever sat with someone you loved dying a long, drawn pit, painful death that they did not want, and which they asked to be relieved from, but had no way of helping them?

Yes I have and we did actually help them.

I challenge anyone to go through that and maintain such a callous attitude.

I feel your attitude is the callous one. It can be summed up about who gives a fuck about abuses that result in the murder of hundreds of vulnerable people who studies have shown tend to be mostly older, disabled women, when I am being promised by this law that the NHS will help me commit suicide by drug overdose if I am terminally ill and only when I feel good and ready.

I don't think that's what they're saying.

My granny was compos mentis until the last few hours of her life. She was very clear that her life was a living hell, a living nightmare - those were her exact words to me.

She hated the indignity of what she had to go through to get to the end: being moved by carers, being changed by them, or putting herself through excruciating pain trying to get to a commode. She hated the feeling of her mouth furring as her immune system packed up.

Of course I helped her. I brushed her teeth and tongue and mouth; though even that she found humiliating because she didn't want to be unable to do those things for herself. She insisted on doing it for as long as she could but ultimately couldn't manage it. I waited with her while the carers changed her when she asked me to, so I could see if there was anything we could change to make it less unbearable; again, she desperately didn't want to be helped by them, she wanted to be able to care for herself. I advocated for her with healthcare professionals, to try and obtain pain relief and other medications to relieve some of her suffering.

But she still had to experience it, in spite of being very clear and very vocal that that was not what she wanted. What benefit did that offer, except putting her through weeks of suffering she didn't want and didn't need to experience?

I think you're missing the point, whether deliberately or not, I don't know.

Yes, thankyou for your thoughtful post.

Of course it is deliberate, that very clear from the posts, but thanks to those of you who are not being obtuse in reading my posts.

And is @AmberTigerEyes really did help end the life of a suffering loved one as they suggest, then how lucky for them they didn’t get prosecuted and jailed for murder ( which it would be by the legal definition), and odd they don’t want to extend that grace to others.

If she’s that bloody bothered, why hasn’t she been saving morphine etc. to end her own life at home? that’s what I’d be doing.

I don’t think the prescription of morphine works that way. Certainly didn’t when I went through this with a relative. But if you have other knowledge of prescription policy, happy to hear it.

When my FiL died in 2020, there were boxes of morphine and mirtazapan left out on the side, we had to remind the nurse to take them away, pretty sure I could have swiped them and denied all knowlege due to the stream of nurses and carers going in every day.

And when my dad died, it wasn’t like that. So we both have different anecdotes and have no way of knowing if Dame Esther’s or her family could have held onto any extra drugs. If this is even what she has been prescribed.

I've had a similar experience. They weren't exactly quick to get them back, either.

It really really surprised me at the time.

There's laxness around it.

It sort of makes me think that this idea of extreme strictness about dosages as regards end of life medicine does not in fact exist.

No I'm not going to be coy. It convinces me it does not exist.

I suppose that this might weaken the argument for AD plus of course nobody in the medical world is supposed to admit it.

If she really wanted to do this she could have gone 6 months ago when she could have got herself there unaided, before she became too frail too go.

From looking at excerpts of her daughter talking to Vanessa Feltz she was enjoying her garden and family until very, very recently.

But when you are terminally ill, and don’t want to leave the people you love, those six months are extremely precious.

You might leave it late for any number of reasons; seeing a grandchild meet a milestone of some sort perhaps, waiting for someone to be settled in a new job or an adult child getting engaged?

I am against AD atm in the UK but I think it’s harsh to blame ER for being in a position that no one ever wants to find themselves in.

Of course there shouldn’t be laxness around powerful drugs lying around at any point but I think the point is that the strictness needn’t exist now to the same extent that it will, if or when, AD is introduced, because it is at that point when everything is categorised in to two distinct systems and people start setting levels for AD and levels for “comfort”.

What the actual? I did not suggest I euthanised anyone.
I just said I helped them.

I didn’t help end their life, I helped them have a better time of dying.
Being present is a comfort. When a loved one is dying, you have to set aside your discomfort and be present for them.

The very idea of euthanising someone because you’re uncomfortable with caring for them in the last months or weeks or days is selfish, if you can’t be there, then leave, hire a death doula.

I won’t claim people are being deliberately obtuse for completely misunderstanding what helping a dying person meant.