Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #63

PF: I felt really confused - what on earth had I just been part of? DIscombobulated.
PF: After a few hours thinking about it [missed a bit - decided to contact Sex Matters]
DH: I understand your specialism as nurse is drug use and psychopsychology? PF: Yes
DH: Retired 2019?
PF: Yes
DH: Retained retiree RCN membership but not employed or anything by them? PF: That's right.
DH: You saw an advert for the event?
PF: Yes
DH: p597 do you recognise, email?
PF: No
DH: p598 recognise this?
PF: No

DH: You attended online with a number of other people?
PF: Yes teams or Zoom or something
DH: You said you noticed camera and mic turned off by the organisers. Did you see other blank panes on the call, this might have been everyone?
PF: No, didn't see blanks.
DH: The presenters of course, but other attendees?
PF: No I think it was other attendees too?
DH: I'm told it was, attendees would be turned on if asked to speak?
PF: It wasn't just the speakers, could see other people too. The speaker was in a pop-out mini thing.

reverting back to my old username now. waves hello to the gang

DH: the trans participant Liz was a facilitor?
PF I think so yes.
DH: You have JW are bringing a clam v RCN. You know it's being defended? PF: Yes
DH: The claim form - you've seen this before?
PF: Yes
DH: Still waiting fo rhearing?
PF: Yes
DH: Those are all my Qs.
J: No Qs from me.
NC: No re-examination.

[break for 10 mins]

Oh hello! 😊

I've attended some tribunals before and this one is moving along nicely because the witnesses are asked a question, then they answer it, then the next question is asked. Nobody struggles to answer yes/no to straightforward questions, and nobody is asked the same thing 16 different ways.

Let's not tempt fate, we haven't met the RCN witnesses yet...

From TT

This is the third part of the afternoon of day 2 in Sandie Peggie vs RCN. The court is taking a short break and will then hear the evidence of Stephen O'Grady (SG), who is Director of Projects at the Free Speech Union (FSU)

A reminder that full information about the case can be found on our Substack page https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-the-royal-college-of-nursing including our coverage of previous hearing sessions.

J: Mr O'Grady is in the lobby for remote participation - clerk is letting him in how.

J: Have we been able to test the connection to Mr O'Grady? [clerk I think] he says he can see and hear us, but can't speak to us?
NC: Might he have entered as an observer?
J: Could you speak Mr O'Grady? [SG does, and is now on the screen too]
J: [affirms in SG]

I'm still waiting to be let in.

NC: [confirms SG name address etc]
NC: Occupation?
SG: DIrector of projects at FSU
NC: And before?
SG: Legal officer at FSU
NC: Can you tell us about FSU approach to legal matters and your role?
SG: We are membership org, so a bit like a trades union. We try to resolve matters at as low a level as possible. Ppl often contact us re employment matters. Some cases do have legal matters aspect so we have legal assistance too. Sometimes a case will move a point that is purely legal and at that point we would bring in external legal advice too. That's the area I worked in.
NC: we seem to have a slight delay on the line. I was asking who the FSU acts for?
SG: For our members. We take cases that we have resources to deal with. Some matters eg threats of violence we would not take. We are non-partisan.
NC: How do you record cases?
SG: Platform based on sales force system. Stores all correspondence. It also categorises cases so we can get overviews eg on what area of law and the topics that are coming up, and what ppl have suffered.

I was thinking the same thing!

But it is quite refreshing we've gone 2 days without any referrals to the ICO, fake professorship revelations, requests to recuse...it hardly feels like a GC related court matter!

NC: Topics relevant to this case?
SG: re 'gender critical beliefs' - we have a couple of topics related, one re transgender matters generally, and pronoun use comes up a lot.
NC: Do you record whether ppl are working with their union also?
SG: General policy is actually not to take up cases where union is already helping, but yes we record.
NC: How many 'gender critical' cases has FSU dealt with over last few years? SG: Don't have exact stats but categorically it's the single biggest group of cases we've had - about a quarter of our cases.
SG: In the last year - the number of GC cases has continued to rise but the proportion has dropped a little.

I'm still not in. Can people in the various rooms see oodles of people waiting in the lobby?

There's only one person waiting in the lobby in my room. I think I waited about 15-20 minutes to be let in mid session just now.

NC: And what can you tell us about nurses bring cases to you, and how many are GC-related.
SG: Healthcare respondents are recorded. Nurses aren't the biggest group but still significant, but re nurses about two thirds are 'gender critical' cases - that's much higher than most areas.
NC: Can you tell us anything re this about the RCN?
SG: I have not been able to find a single case of RCN provided support of any scale to any of our cases. In a couple of cases RCN has assisted partially eg supporting re regulator but not re employer.

I can see 2 in the lobby in my room. I was in the waiting room for an hour this morning, having tried to join late. Didn’t get let in until it restarted after lunch break

Oh bum! I logged out during the break as a reflex!

SG: In one case the FSU was doing all the support but the RCN did eventually step in. But in general it doesn't happen. Though the RCN we do have on record providing proper support in other areas - just not this one.
NC [missed a Q]
NC: Can you tell us about proportion of cases that do get union support in the GC area?
SG: Zero in sense of complete support provided, a few where it's partial. Compared to cases in other areas eg race where much more union support.
NC: Can you give example?
SG: A nurse was involved in an end-of-shift handover - there was a troubled young woman who identified as trans and nurse felt these were significant elements of patient care and so described patient correctly as female & mention the trans id.
SG: Slightly complicated bcs agency nurse, but covered by EA. The colleagues reported her to agency and said don't send her again. FSU took up the case as, manifestation of protected belief. We encouraged her to ask RCN for help and she did try, we assisted her with that and ACAS.

SG: Eventually we were getting close of out of time so we drafted pleadings - she was able to take those to the RCN who did eventually then support her.
NC: Any other cases?
SG: Another where the context was handover and the nurse used correct pronouns - subjected to regulatory and employment matters - RCN only aided with regulatory. We also get a lot of information sent to us too about union policies and people are worried about those and ask how to change.
NC: Do you recall a Glasgow based nurse?
SG: Yes she wrote to us with concerns, not facing problems immediately but wanted advice on challenging a policy that she felt detrimental to GC beliefs. She raised with RCN rep who refused to help and said something like, her values not aligned with RCN's so couldn't assist.
NC: p1116
SG: Yes this is her email - she tells us here about what RCN had said about if her values not aligned with RCN they would not be able to represent her.

Interesting but hearsay surely? Doesn’t mean it’s not admissible, but less probative I think.

NC: p1117.
NC: Can you tell us about this exchange?
SG: One of the nurses I mentioned, both regulatory and employment proceedings. Case officer says she understands RCN will help with both prongs, he replies confirming not helping with employment aspect.
SG: He applied for a review I think citing FWS case, and he confirms RCN supporting re regulatory.

DH: Just a few Qs. We've just looked at 2 emails, p1116 and 1117. These are email chains as you see?
SG: Yes
DH: Did the FSU contribute these for the bundle?
SG: Yes
DH: To illustrate the examples?
SG: Yes

SG has just blown a hole in the RCN maybe trying to say they dont help when the person has already had legal advice. " In one case the FSU was doing all the support but the RCN did eventually step in." He makes it clearer "Eventually we were getting close of out of time so we drafted pleadings - she was able to take those to the RCN who did eventually then support her."

Thanks nauticant for the thread and the copy and paste people.

DH: Did the FSU contribute these for the bundle?
SG: Yes
DH: To illustrate the examples?
SG: Yes
DH: NC asked you Qs about patterns about the cases and questions you get. Do I understand that your evidence on that has come from considering your case management system?
SG: Yes
DH: So every case is entered on database and you can get and analyse reports, cases by type?
SG: Yes
DH: We don't have reports from the system here? Is that because it's considered privileged?
SG: No, it wouldn't be privileged.
DH: The raw material includes details of cases?
SG: Yes
DH: Names, dates?
SG: Yes

DH: Looking at p1116. You explained that this nurse is from Glasgow area?
SG: Yes that's my understanding
DH: She conveys 3 things - recounts a convo between herself and RCN rep? SG: Yes