Page 4 | Lactation support conference in Ireland - the quiet part out loud

ArabellaScott · 2026-08-25T10:16:24+00:00

[[https://genspect.org/where-does-male-lactation-fit-in-breastfeeding-support-networks/ https://genspect.org/where-does-male-lactation-fit-in-breastfeeding-support-networks/]] 'This year’s program lists a lactation consultant called Jacob Engelsman speaking on “communicating inclusively: creating gender-affirming clinical spaces for families” and “lactation support for gender-diverse families”.' '[[https://www.jacobengelsmanibclc.com/ Jacob Engelsman]] is a Certified Lactation Consultant based in the US. He describes himself as an infant care specialist, speaker, and writer. He is the author of a recently published book, ^[[https://www.amazon.com/Lactation-Rest-Us-Parents-Helpers/dp/180501191X Lactation for the Rest of Us: A Guide for Queer and Trans Parents and Helpers]]^, and specialises in inducing lactation in non-gestational parents (parents who haven’t given birth). “Lactation is for anyone” Jacob tells us in [[https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=N2O9bPs35aY this podcast interview]]. Engelsman’s interest and expertise is not limited to lactation for the purpose of feeding an infant. One of his previous presentations was “Inducing Lactation for Kinksters” and according to his CV he has been giving various talks including on lactation at [[https://frolicon.com/ Frolicon]], an adult lifestyle and fetish convention held annually in Atlanta, Georgia with substantial programming around kink, BDSM, sexuality, polyamory, LGBTQ+ relationships and alternative sexual/family cultures. He is not a nurse, midwife, doctor, or healthcare professional (nor does he claim to be). He is not a parent or someone with personal experience of breastfeeding. He got his certification five years ago and prior to that worked in the food service industry.' ... 'Why would a man ^want^ to lactate? In Engelsman’s own words: “There are several reasons a person may choose to lactate regardless of whether they can gestate a child…a non-gestational parent might choose to induce lactation as a way to feel emotionally closer to the baby, assert their own feelings of parenthood, gender euphoria, or just for the unique experience of it.” (p.49) Writing specifically about “cis” men, that is men who identify as men, he says: “As to the question of why they would want to, it seems reasonable to believe that cis men want to lactate for the same reasons as anyone else. Which is to say, usually to feed and bond with their baby and to a lesser extent for curiosity, fun, or sexual gratification.” (p.152)'

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 25/08/2026 17:57

Mine started reaching for solid food as soon as their hand-eye coordination was up to it! They saw their parents getting something, they wanted it too. (And the later ones of course saw their siblings.)

Then they threw whatever it was at the dog, at the sofa, at the ceiling....

Kingdomofsleep · 25/08/2026 18:42

I meant the odd bottle of formula rather than solids, which i think many mothers feel guilty or fearful about, more than the solids.

I have known quite a few mums who, when seeking help for a bad latch, were advised to exclusively express instead "until they get the hang of it" and that is nothing less than torture for a postpartum mum, and of course not sustainable. It seems to be standard advice from the NHS who aren't allowed to suggest formula.

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2026 18:45

Because of the risk of interfering with establishing Bfing. Timing matters.

OP posts:

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 25/08/2026 18:49

Yoghurt is your friend, sometimes. Live almost-liquid yoghurt as made in a thermos using a culture. Unless there's a problem with cows' milk, it makes a handy bridge between breast milk and macerated food (before the salt is added for the grown-ups). You don't have to go straight from breast milk to bread-and-butter dipped soldiers, or fish fingers and chips, though obviously if the next-older child is getting those the baby is going to want them.

I wonder whether lactation consultants ever give that sort of practical advice, or even know it exists.

mrshoho · 25/08/2026 18:50

One of his previous presentations was “Inducing Lactation for Kinksters”

Red flag right there. How can anyone allow this man speak with authority on the intricacies of breastfeeding babies knowing his interest in lactation for Kinksters? It's disgusting this man is held up as a Lactation Consultant. Poor babies who are put in such a situation.

AstonCanKissMyArse · 25/08/2026 18:54

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2026 11:32

I think the mother/baby dyad, the strongest bond known to humans, really pips some men off. As this man says, it can have sexual motivations, but I also think that among some men there is basic element of rage that he is 'excluded' from this relationship.

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My ex was like this when I was bf. Seemed to really piss him off. Was totally unsupportive. It was really fucking weird until i realised he was envious.

I don't think he actually wanted to lactate, but it pissed him off that i had a thing he couldn't have.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 25/08/2026 18:57

Or that the baby had a thing he wasn't getting at the time? Men seem able to get very jealous of their own babies.

JellySaurus · 25/08/2026 19:02

Do you suppose that this will actually get any oxygen in Ireland?

AstonCanKissMyArse · 25/08/2026 19:15

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 25/08/2026 18:57

Or that the baby had a thing he wasn't getting at the time? Men seem able to get very jealous of their own babies.

Edited

Sadly he'd lost all interest in me by that point, so i don't think it was that, although i understand that dynamic is not uncommon.

Kingdomofsleep · 25/08/2026 19:21

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2026 18:45

Because of the risk of interfering with establishing Bfing. Timing matters.

Views may vary but I think expressing (before 3 months) is the death knell of establishing breastfeeding and that's a hill I'll die on. It is literally the opposite of helpful for establishing breastfeeding.

I've never known any mum progress from expressing to successfully direct-breastfeeding, but I've seen pretty much 80% of my mum friends progress from expressing (as advised, when seeking help) to exclusive formula (with unnecessary shame and despair, usually around the 3-month mark). Every minute one spends hooked up to an uncomfortable machine would be better spent snuggling your baby. If the odd bottle of formula keeps the breastfeeding going for over a year, that's way better than the outcome I described, both for the baby's gut and the mother's well-being.

But I am seriously derailing now. I just feel very passionate about the formula shaming because it's affecting mums all over the country, and I think negatively affecting the longer term breastfeeding stats. I don't think "exclusive breastfeeding at 6 months" should be a target, i think "still breastfeeding at all at 12 months" should be the target. But this is not the thread for this, i know!

nicepotoftea · 25/08/2026 20:30

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2026 17:24

Multinational corporations have expended massive and sustained campaigns to undermine breastfeeding, over decades.

The UK and Ireland have some of the lowest rates of breastfeeding in the world.

We are not the norm.

What do you mean 'put up with it', though? That is a very odd take.

Show quote history

What do you mean 'put up with it', though? That is a very odd take.

I'm talking about animals and what drives them to care for their young. They don't have the same long term connection with their young that humans have and they don't have an abstract understanding of health or societal benefits, so I assume they are driven by instinct. However, extensive observation of animals suckling (I live rurally) leads me to believe that the mothers eventually get a bit fed up with it.

I found breastfeeding easy and convenient, if sometimes a bit isolating, but I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't believed on an intellectual level that it was good for my children. At the time they were born the advice was that children shouldn't start on solids until 4 then 6 months, so (finding breast feeding easy) I breastfed exclusively for the advised amount time, but, in contrast to other mammals, it was a completely pragmatic choice.

My mother thought she was doing her best for me when she bottle fed me, and I don't think she ever thought she missed out.

My point is that, although logically I can understand why there would be an evolutionary drive to breast feed, it seems to be easily ignored in human females. What is not easily ignored in mothers is the drive to do what you believe to be best for your child.

nicepotoftea · 25/08/2026 20:31

Kingdomofsleep · 25/08/2026 19:21

Views may vary but I think expressing (before 3 months) is the death knell of establishing breastfeeding and that's a hill I'll die on. It is literally the opposite of helpful for establishing breastfeeding.

I've never known any mum progress from expressing to successfully direct-breastfeeding, but I've seen pretty much 80% of my mum friends progress from expressing (as advised, when seeking help) to exclusive formula (with unnecessary shame and despair, usually around the 3-month mark). Every minute one spends hooked up to an uncomfortable machine would be better spent snuggling your baby. If the odd bottle of formula keeps the breastfeeding going for over a year, that's way better than the outcome I described, both for the baby's gut and the mother's well-being.

But I am seriously derailing now. I just feel very passionate about the formula shaming because it's affecting mums all over the country, and I think negatively affecting the longer term breastfeeding stats. I don't think "exclusive breastfeeding at 6 months" should be a target, i think "still breastfeeding at all at 12 months" should be the target. But this is not the thread for this, i know!

Edited

Show quote history

I never got on with expressing. Far too painful.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 25/08/2026 21:44

Ah, right. These are words he's said in the past. And could say again at this presentation.
Seriously, are any of the delegates upon learning of his comments seriously going to attend his talk?
Because if they are, they're giving him the green light. They should all boycott en masse.

HairyAries · 25/08/2026 21:59

When this involves trans people who have used hormones to transition, I find it really concerning that those hormones would be passing through to the baby if the trans person is lactating. I’m surprised that I don’t see that particular issue discussed more.

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2026 22:17

HairyAries · 25/08/2026 21:59

When this involves trans people who have used hormones to transition, I find it really concerning that those hormones would be passing through to the baby if the trans person is lactating. I’m surprised that I don’t see that particular issue discussed more.

Agree.

There is some limited research.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK501721/

'Limited data indicate that a low-dose (100 mg) subcutaneous testosterone pellet given to a nursing mother appears not to increase milk testosterone levels markedly. Subcutaneous testosterone cypionate does increase milk testosterone levels. However, testosterone has low oral bioavailability because of extensive first-pass metabolism, so it appears to not increase serum testosterone levels in breastfed infants. Breastfed infants appear not to be adversely affected by maternal or transgender paternal testosterone therapy. High doses of testosterone can suppress lactation.'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK501296/

'Limited information on the use of estradiol during breastfeeding indicates that the route of administration and dosage form have influences on the amount transferred into breastmilk. Vaginal administration results in measurable amounts in milk, but transdermal patches do not. Maternal doses of up to 200 mcg daily transdermally do not increase estradiol or estriol in breastfed infants or cause any adverse effects in breastfed infants. Vaginal administration results in unpredictable peak times for estradiol in breastmilk, so timing of the dose with respect to breastfeeding is probably not useful. Milk estradiol levels have not been studied after use of the estradiol gel, but maternal blood levels only increase slightly in a dose-dependent manner.
Estrogens can decrease the milk supply, especially if started before the milk supply is well established at about 6 weeks postpartum. The decrease can happen over the first few days of estrogen exposure.1] A case report of inadequate milk production and inadequate infant weight gain was possibly caused by transdermal estradiol initiated on the first day postpartum, but 2 small studies found no such effect when the drug was initiated after lactation was well established.'

Of course, the effects of estradiol on males rather than females, and at different dosages etc, may be a wholly different issue, but given that this database (which is generally a great resource) appears to be at pains to suggest that 'trans' hormones are totally fine, no problem, I am unsure at how much to believe it.

The notes also include this shitshow:

'A 50-year-old transgender woman wished to breastfeed her grandchild was taking baseline treatment with estradiol 0.3 mg transdermal patch every 72 hours and micronized progesterone 200 mg oral once daily. To initiate lactation, her estradiol dose was increased to a 0.4 mg transdermal patch every 72 hours and nipple stimulation was initiated. Later the patient’s progesterone was increased to 300 mg daily and metoclopramide oral 10 mg three times daily was initiated. She lactated for a total of two weeks and nursed the four-month-old infant on multiple occasions. Her peak milk production was 30 mL from her larger right breast, and 8 mL from her smaller left breast.13]'

I mean, what the fuck.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK501721/

OP posts:

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2026 22:19

Also:

'A 50-year-old transgender woman wished to breastfeed the expected infant of her partner. She was given estradiol in dosages increasing from 6 to 8 mg (6 mg oral and 2 mg gel) daily along with progesterone and domperidone to stimulate lactation. Progesterone was discontinued after 123 days of treatment. The patient was able to produce small quantities of milk and was able to directly breastfeed the infant.14]'

This means a 50 year old man was permitted to pump himself full of drugs that doctors generally shy away from prescribing to women because of the risks, and then indulge his desire to feed an infant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK501296/#

OP posts:

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2026 22:25

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11411746/

'There are no guidelines for induced lactation in transgender women, so we increased the hormone dosage based on periodic blood tests and patient symptoms. At the time of the treatment of the current patient, there had only been two previous transgender breastfeeding papers 6, 7]. Therefore, although estradiol, progesterone, and prolactin were monitored with reference values, it was difficult to evaluate the test results. Because of concerns regarding leg vein thrombosis associated with high-dose estrogen, and arrhythmia and dyskinesia associated with high-dose domperidone, the lower extremities were carefully visually inspected and examined neurologically, and ECG was regularly monitored. Blood tests were performed as an adjunct to screen for thrombosis by measuring D-dimer.'

What about the baby?

'Considering age and other factors, the risk of estradiol-induced venous thromboembolism was considered high, and transdermal rather than oral agents were chosen for estrogen administration, as recommended in the guidelines 12]. The initial milk production was only a few drops. Subsequently, 8 mg estradiol, 500 mg progesterone, and 80 mg domperidone were administered to continue pseudo-gestation. We did not increase estrogen and progesterone levels to gestational and postpartum levels because of the risk of venous thromboembolism, and because milk production was observed, the levels of estrogen and progesterone were simply maintained. '

'On day 146, [his] partner delivered and the patient was able to directly breastfeed the baby. After consultation with the patient, domperidone was tapered and breastfeeding was discontinued on day 237, 3 months after delivery. The breastfeeding period was physically and psychologically taxing for the patient because of the ongoing hypoestrogenic and hyperprolactinemia associated with drug adjustments. Considering the patient’s age, health, and the burden of raising a newborn, breastfeeding was discontinued. '

WHAT ABOUT THE BABY?
...
'The current patient was older, obese, and had high insulin resistance, which may have contributed to delayed/poor lactation. Other reports did not mention the body mass index. The current patient was in [his] 50s, which is older than other cases. It has been suggested that obesity may increase insulin resistance, resulting in delayed induction of lactation 17, 18], although the mechanism is still unclear.'

OP posts:

moto748e · 25/08/2026 22:44

What an absolute horror-show! How the fuck does this happen? Where are the adults in the room? 😡

JellySaurus · 25/08/2026 23:04

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2026 22:25

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11411746/

'There are no guidelines for induced lactation in transgender women, so we increased the hormone dosage based on periodic blood tests and patient symptoms. At the time of the treatment of the current patient, there had only been two previous transgender breastfeeding papers 6, 7]. Therefore, although estradiol, progesterone, and prolactin were monitored with reference values, it was difficult to evaluate the test results. Because of concerns regarding leg vein thrombosis associated with high-dose estrogen, and arrhythmia and dyskinesia associated with high-dose domperidone, the lower extremities were carefully visually inspected and examined neurologically, and ECG was regularly monitored. Blood tests were performed as an adjunct to screen for thrombosis by measuring D-dimer.'

What about the baby?

'Considering age and other factors, the risk of estradiol-induced venous thromboembolism was considered high, and transdermal rather than oral agents were chosen for estrogen administration, as recommended in the guidelines 12]. The initial milk production was only a few drops. Subsequently, 8 mg estradiol, 500 mg progesterone, and 80 mg domperidone were administered to continue pseudo-gestation. We did not increase estrogen and progesterone levels to gestational and postpartum levels because of the risk of venous thromboembolism, and because milk production was observed, the levels of estrogen and progesterone were simply maintained. '

'On day 146, [his] partner delivered and the patient was able to directly breastfeed the baby. After consultation with the patient, domperidone was tapered and breastfeeding was discontinued on day 237, 3 months after delivery. The breastfeeding period was physically and psychologically taxing for the patient because of the ongoing hypoestrogenic and hyperprolactinemia associated with drug adjustments. Considering the patient’s age, health, and the burden of raising a newborn, breastfeeding was discontinued. '

WHAT ABOUT THE BABY?
...
'The current patient was older, obese, and had high insulin resistance, which may have contributed to delayed/poor lactation. Other reports did not mention the body mass index. The current patient was in [his] 50s, which is older than other cases. It has been suggested that obesity may increase insulin resistance, resulting in delayed induction of lactation 17, 18], although the mechanism is still unclear.'

What about the baby? Absolutely! And he fed a newborn on their day of birth - what about the mother? What about the mother-baby dyad - what about their best interests?

And then the 50yo grandfather wanting to 'breastfeed' his grandchild? 🤮

How these men must gaslight and control the mothers of their children, as well as all the people around them.

How did it not occur to the researchers that may, just maybe, inducing galactorrhoea in a man in order to interfere with a baby and its mother is one of those things that should remain a thought experiment. How the hell did it ever pass ethics?

Datun · 26/08/2026 08:33

JellySaurus · 25/08/2026 23:04

What about the baby? Absolutely! And he fed a newborn on their day of birth - what about the mother? What about the mother-baby dyad - what about their best interests?

And then the 50yo grandfather wanting to 'breastfeed' his grandchild? 🤮

How these men must gaslight and control the mothers of their children, as well as all the people around them.

How did it not occur to the researchers that may, just maybe, inducing galactorrhoea in a man in order to interfere with a baby and its mother is one of those things that should remain a thought experiment. How the hell did it ever pass ethics?

Show quote history

I agree. Some men will do absolutely fucking anything to have an orgasm. But what about all the other people enabling them?

My conclusion is you have to be a pervert to enable this shit.

Using babies in this way is horror story stuff.

Datun · 26/08/2026 08:34

Kingdomofsleep · 25/08/2026 15:54

They were wrong about bottles being better - but you do need to teach a new style of latch when the baby has opposing teeth. Unfortunately a lot of the wisdom around these techniques has been lost. I think even so-called lactation consultants often get a lot of advice wrong because they base advice on (low quality) small scale "research", partially by men, rather than passed-down knowledge derived from real breastfeeding mothers. For example the erroneous advice about staying on the same breast to get the "hindmilk" leading to lots of mothers reducing their supply.

I have a very dim view of most of the lactation consultant industry. I think the best work is done by volunteer peer supporters (mothers who actually breastfeed)

Show quote history

I know it was a bit of a derail, but I was v interested in your comments.

For example the erroneous advice about staying on the same breast to get the "hindmilk" leading to lots of mothers reducing their supply.

Can you expect this bit? I was always advised to keep going on the first breast for this very reason.

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 26/08/2026 11:20

JellySaurus · 25/08/2026 23:04

What about the baby? Absolutely! And he fed a newborn on their day of birth - what about the mother? What about the mother-baby dyad - what about their best interests?

And then the 50yo grandfather wanting to 'breastfeed' his grandchild? 🤮

How these men must gaslight and control the mothers of their children, as well as all the people around them.

How did it not occur to the researchers that may, just maybe, inducing galactorrhoea in a man in order to interfere with a baby and its mother is one of those things that should remain a thought experiment. How the hell did it ever pass ethics?

Show quote history

One was a grandfather. The second study was a man not related to the baby. His partner's, conceived by sperm donor.

OP posts:

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 26/08/2026 11:22

moto748e · 25/08/2026 22:44

What an absolute horror-show! How the fuck does this happen? Where are the adults in the room? 😡

Reading the study, I had a sense that the medics involved were keen to write a paper that involved new 'research '. I didnt get any sense that the baby's wellbeing was given any thought.

OP posts:

Kingdomofsleep · 26/08/2026 11:38

Datun · 26/08/2026 08:34

I know it was a bit of a derail, but I was v interested in your comments.

For example the erroneous advice about staying on the same breast to get the "hindmilk" leading to lots of mothers reducing their supply.

Can you expect this bit? I was always advised to keep going on the first breast for this very reason.

Show quote history

So if the issue is that the baby isn't gaining weight, the key is to get more milk to be consumed.

The no1 way to increase supply is "switch feeding" which is swapping breasts frequently. Like 5min max on each breast, minimum 6 breasts per session (LRLRLR).

The no1 way to reduce supply is to do "block feeding" where you only use 1 breast per session. Then at the next feeding session, the other breast. This technique is what you do if you are trying to wean your baby off the breast.

The above two techniques are common knowledge in cultures where breastfeeding is common; it's also instinct when you have a hungry baby in your lap, as she empties the first breast quickly, your other breast starts to fill up, so you switch and switch.

The "hindmilk" nonsense came from laboratory-analysing the milk at the end of an artificial expression session being marginally higher in fat. It is not worth it to block feed if you want your baby to gain weight: you are getting a marginally higher ratio of fat but at a huge decrease in supply.

MarieDeGournay · 26/08/2026 11:42

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 25/08/2026 21:44

Ah, right. These are words he's said in the past. And could say again at this presentation.
Seriously, are any of the delegates upon learning of his comments seriously going to attend his talk?
Because if they are, they're giving him the green light. They should all boycott en masse.

This is off their website

By attending an ALCI event you are aware of the following:

ALCI speakers are carefully selected and screened by ALCI Council. ALCI is not responsible for the content or reliability of individual speakers during the National Conference. ALCI does not necessarily endorse the views expressed within them.
Terms and Conditions of ALCI Membership - ALCI

So they 'carefully selected and screened' Engelsman, but also are not responsible or what he says.... yeah right.

Instead of boycotting his talks, I hope the responsible professional members of ALCI - who I believe [not sure] are 'mandated persons' under child safety legislation, attend en masse and loudly inform him that they are going to report him for encouraging harmful and/or neglectful actions towards infants.
Namely, involving an infant in an act intended for the sexual gratification of an adult; and/or withholding suitable nutrition from an infant, and/or causing an infant to ingest harmful liquids.

And anything else anyone can think of!