Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #62

I haven't noticed Michael Foran in the online room, btw, though he said he had a link now - I wonder whether they have a second room for journalists or something, or whether he's one of the 38(!) people currently in the waiting room?

From TT:

The second afternoon session will continue here - returning at 14:45 (approximately). t.co/WbPWkZ3XyQ

See our Substack for more background, tweet threads and press.
t.co/CDeWKFjXNE

We resume.
NC - a few further questions, you were taken to Stuart Fraser's note of his convo with you on 5 or 8 Jan, his recollection that it took 40 minutes, you said it didn't take as long as that, how long did it take
SP - possibly 10 or 15 minutes
NC - he's reported

you as saying 'she (Dr Upton) should not be in there' would you have said that
SP no, I would have said he.
NC we've largely cleared this up but this is the email with the number in the subject line - do you know your membership number
SP vaguely
NC could you recite it

From Nick Wallis

[we are back for re-ex of SP]
NC first of all you were taken SF's note of his convo with you on p320 on 5 or 8 of Jan [reprinted above in this thread] - he says it took around 40 minutes you didn;'t
think it was as long as that - how long?
SP poss about 10 mins
NC the member advised the doctor that she should be in there - he's recorded you saying she should not be in there - is that how you described things to SF
SP "no I would have said 'he'"

NC I think we might have cleared this up but going back to the email with the number in the subject line - do you know your RCN number
SP [laughs] I know it starts 77 and its's six numbers long
NC can you go to p324 rh side of page towards the top - there is a panel headed
personal number. See it
SP yes
NC what is it
SP 987798
NC and what is that?
SP that's my RCN number
NC I thinkthat's as far as we need to go. I think it was an innocent misunderstanding on behalf of the respondent (R)
NC who was driving the process of getting answers from the FHB
SP my solicitor
NC did she do anything to push to get the views of other staff at NHS Fife
SP no
NC why did you not give the RCN a steer
SP "I didn't want to mention anyone's names. it was quite a toxic entoment and after I had been suspended I didn't want to put anyone else in that position. and that's why they didn't come forward either."
[SP has finished giving evidence. Next witness is going to be called. He is the former MP Neale Hanvey]

Can somebody explain what the issue about the membership number is?

From TT:

SP - l know it starts 77 then has about 6 more numbers,
NC - if you look at the right hand side of that page towards the top, you will see a panel, personal details, ref numbers - do you recognise that number
SP yes, that's my RCN number
NC you were asked by DH if your head of

claim about GT was that she did not press your concerns. Who was pressing your concerns with NHS Fife?
SP - MG, my solicitor
NC did GT do anything besides send the letter, and then refuse to copy the RCN members
SP no
NC why didn't you steer the RCN to anyone else

SP once I was suspended it was quite a toxic environment, I didn't want to land anyone in it and I think that's why no one came forward.
NC thank you I have no more questions.
SP excused by the judge.
J - is the next witness ready?
NC, its Neal Hanvey

I think what happened was: there was a document that got lost in Sandy's junk mail (or is it, that she didn't receive at all? I'm not sure) and which she didn't recognise as relevant until much later, which had this odd number as subject. RCN's counsel suggested that it was her RCN membership number, the suggestion being, perhaps, that she should have recognised it and realised that the mail was important. However, whatever it was, it wasn't that.

From TT:

J takes NH through affirmation
NC good afternoon, confirm your full name, work or home address.
NH does so.
NC I'm going to ask a number of leading questions but has been agreed between the parties. Otherwise I might ask you open questions. You were the MP for

Kirkcaldy, before that?
NH - describes training and career as a psychiatric nurse
NC how did you become aware of SP
NH someone who worked in my office, SP didn't live in my constituency but worked in it so I confirmed with Lindsay Hoyle my actions.

NC can you describe your first meeting with SP
NH - 25 Jan, my office, meeting room, I could tell that SP and her mum were deeply distressed. Spoke with her mum initially and she outlined the issues. Then I asked Sandy to walk me through it.
NC no dispute about what was said

So the numbers are definitely different? Thanks, I couldn't face the reverse scrolling to try to work that out.

I’m in room #5 so assumed there were at least 4 others.

Neale Hanvey is very sound and a Very Good Bloke.

And presumably a union member at some point

It will be interesting to see how DH treats him when questioning him.

Indeed he is. Much missed in parliament for his support on GC issues, especially conversion therapy bill and safeguarding children, due to his mental health expertise.

From TT:

so we won't go over it. Did unions come up?
NH yes they did but it was a very uncomfortable conversation, about her menstrual flood and her discomfort. I asked her about what support she was getting from her union and it was clear to me that she wasn't getting the level of

support she should be.
NC what did they say about the union
NH I asked what the union was doing, quite often there are informal corridor convos between management and the union to try and sort this kind of thing out. It was my impression that there was no appetite from the

union to challenge the suspension or take any action.
NC did you offer to help Sandie
NH it was my impression that the union was not offering support that they should, it struck me that the RCN's comments on non-discrimination in the workplace did not mention women but only

From Nick Wallis

[Hanvey is bald and is wearing a green three piece tweed suit a green tartan tie with brown shoes. He has been affirmed.]
NC you were MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.
NH trained as a psychiatric nurse in Fife, worked in London, latterly divisional nurse director for cancer dept in Royal Marsden and conducted primary research into children's cancer.
NC how did you come into contact with SP
NH was told about it as SP didn't live in the constituency and was asked if I could take the case on because of my interest in sex and gender and because she worked in my constituency I could take it on
NC when did you meet
NH Jan 2024
NC what was it like - met SP and her mum. I've dealt with distressed people. SP and her mum were really quite in "emotional distress". They sat down and I asked them to take me through events. Think I spoke to SP's mum initially and asked
why she got in touch and then I asked SP to outline what happened.
NC thanks - don't need to hear the detail of what happened on xmas eve. but was there any disco of the role of the union
NH it was quite a diff conversation - despite my prof background
i found it uncomfortable they had to relate their situation - I remember when I was a young man pointing out blood on a colleagues uniform and it was menstrual flood and I was embarrassed. We did discuss normal working practice and I asked what support she was getting from
the union and it was "reasonably clear to me she wasn't getting the support I would have expected or hoped" from a member in that situation.
NC did they mention union support
NH I asked what the union was doing - had they been liaising with the employer...
... because in my experience there are usually corridor conversations between management and unions so the process can be properly supported "it didn't seem to me that the issues were being taken seriously" especially around her suspension
it was my suspicion at the time that the RCN were not responding in the right way to support a member who was experiencing a complex difficulty in the workplace.
There was a Times article last weekend and it struck me that the RCN's comment about non-discrimination in the workplace didn't mention women - it mentioned LGBTQ people and it confirmed to me there wasn't a properly balancing of rights of interest...
NC what did you do
NH I thought what had happened to SP was wrong and whilst I couldn't intervene in a dispute I thought I could at least do something about what I thought were the deficiencies in the RCN's approach by contact others
NC what was that
NH I went to For Women Scotland and Sex Matters and used my connection with them to give SP the sort of support that I thought she should have received from her union

From TT:

LGBTQs and that there wasn't a proper balancing of the rights and responsibilities. Did I answer the question?
NC did you offer any specific help
NH I couldn't intervene in an employment dispute but I would offer any help I could from my contacts that I had built up.

NC and what was that help[
NH - I connected her with For Women Scotland and Sex Matters, Maya Forstater so that she could get the support she should have been getting from her union.
NC what happened next
NH I don't have dates on FWS - disappearing Whatsapp messages, but I

put her in touch with Sex Matters a couple of days after I met her. It was appropriate for me to continue to be involved, I made the connection and handed over to Maya from there.
NC - gives bundle reference - NH can't read the page numbers, MG now finding the page.

I'm ex NHS. We were forever getting fake emails from the IT dept to check our fraud awareness. If I saw an email with just a weird number as the subject line - especially one that had gone straight into the junk folder - there's no way I would have opened it. Opening it gets you on The List and you have to do the spam awareness online course within the next 5 days. There's more than enough tedious online training as it is, without adding extras.

From TT:

NC can you explain to the tribunal we're looking at
NH my message to the SM twitter account, sets out the account in general, no confidential information, my reading of the RCNs disinterest in the case.
NC I suspect it doesn't matter but can you tell us exactly what date you

met SP
NH Unfortunately, I cannot. When my office was winding, I passed over constituent files, but I asked Ash Reagan to take over Sandie's case in Scotland. And that office hadn't accepted them. They have been effectively deleted as not accepted electronically.

NC - I have no further questions
DH - thank you, you mentioned why you don't have access to those files, but you have the diary entry so you know when you met SP and her mother
NH - yes
DH - and how long did that meeting take
NH - about an hour

Early finish today

The inevitable bundle issue raises it's ugly head yet again.

From Nick Wallis

NC what happened next
NH unfortunately my WA messages with FWS are on a rolling delete so I couldn't refresh my memory as to what happened, but I messaged SM on 27 Jan after getting SP's consent to do so. I didn't involve myself in that so my job was just making sure
connections were made and it was handed over for SP and Maya (F from SM) to make those arrangements from there.
NC could we go to p788 [in the bundle]
NC what are we looking at on this page?
NH my message to the SM twitter account which is monitored by May and Helen at that time and it sets out
in detail of the generalities of the situation without any confidential info or identifiers and it "contains my reading of the RCN's disinterest in the case, really"
[NH going into a long explanation as to how his notes on SP were deleted/lost sent to someone who lost them when he left office, even though they perhaps shouldn't have been]
NC nfq
DH you say you have diary entry saying you met SP on Jan 2024 - how long did that meeting last?

NH 40 mins to an hour
DH was that typical
NH if you book an appt with me it usually is an hour - helps if you take it slowly
DH yes not rushing them out the door. so on p718 on 27 Jan you start taking steps and you saw a "boundary" between your office and an employment dispute
DH what's the "boundary"
NH there is and was no issue with me givingg political voice to the issue or the situation - what I can't or couldn't do is involve myself in an employment dispute - I couldn't come to a disc meeting. It would be difficult for any union to have a pol
coming along to a meeting. I can give a voice to the pol dimension - rights and wrong etc but not the individualised dispute - that's the boundary I'm referring to.
DH thanks that's helpful
DH that's it
J no qs for me - re-ex?
NC no
[J discharges NH and tells him not to discuss matters with any future witnesses. NH leaves]
[we are taking an early bath - we have finished surprisingly early. Lisa MacKenzie, Jennifer Wilmott and Pauline Fox are scheduled to give evidence tomorrow]

From TT:

DH - and is that a normal length meeting
NH yes, those meetings are diarised for an hour to allow time for people to express their issue
DH you mentioned a boundary between yourself and an employment dispute can you expand on that
NH it's fine for me to give political voice or

about the rights and wrongs but I couldn't say go along to the next meeting it would not be right. And it wouldn't be appropriate for me to come along to a meeting with a union, it would be wrong for a politician to do that.

DH no further questions.
J I have no questions, thank you,
NH excused.
J - I sense we may have finished with the available witnesses.
NC - yes that's correct.
J well we will wrap up for the day.
Witness order for tomorrow; Lisa Mackenzie will be first.

I can't help feeling that the judge was tempting fate by suggesting that they were getting on faster than expected, in tones that suggested she thought the tribunal would continue in that vein!

Someone else to c&p tomorrow please?

Thanks @fanOfBen That felt like a lot to keep up with today!