Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Face the judge

141 replies

Tapasita · 21/08/2023 11:34

Lucy Letby, you cowedly, murdering bitch. Someone should drag her out of her cell by her hair so the victim's families can look at the face of their babies' killer as the judge throws away the key

OP posts:
Tg2023 · 21/08/2023 13:26

@IClaudine she isn't civilised or part of society anymore.

Berlinlover · 21/08/2023 13:27

I agree with you OP.

ilovesooty · 21/08/2023 13:27

Tg2023 · 21/08/2023 13:26

@IClaudine she isn't civilised or part of society anymore.

Your views aren't civilised either.

IClaudine · 21/08/2023 13:28

It was the same on the Ian Watkins thread the other week. Lots of posters salivating at the thought of violence and torture.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 21/08/2023 13:28

Tg2023 · 21/08/2023 13:26

@IClaudine she isn't civilised or part of society anymore.

How society treats her defines the type of society we are. Are we vengeful and brutal or are we better than that.

IClaudine · 21/08/2023 13:29

Tg2023 · 21/08/2023 13:26

@IClaudine she isn't civilised or part of society anymore.

What a silly thing to say. Of course prisoners are part of society.

IClaudine · 21/08/2023 13:30

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 21/08/2023 13:28

How society treats her defines the type of society we are. Are we vengeful and brutal or are we better than that.

Exactly.

I reckon some posters would enjoy public executions. It is chilling.

beeonmybonnett · 21/08/2023 13:42

IClaudine · 21/08/2023 13:30

Exactly.

I reckon some posters would enjoy public executions. It is chilling.

I don’t think wishing that a criminal not be given the choice as to whether they attend court or not be in anyway comparable as to wanting public executions.

I get that realistically it may be difficult to escort a criminal to court, but it still seems absolutely outrageous that when someone is being sentenced for very serious crimes that they can simply just opt out of attending.

They should be there to face the music instead of hiding away .

Hoppinggreen · 21/08/2023 13:46

Tg2023 · 21/08/2023 13:26

@IClaudine she isn't civilised or part of society anymore.

Legally she is
She still has all the rights and protections the law gives me

Hoppinggreen · 21/08/2023 13:46

Gives HER

IClaudine · 21/08/2023 13:50

beeonmybonnett · 21/08/2023 13:42

I don’t think wishing that a criminal not be given the choice as to whether they attend court or not be in anyway comparable as to wanting public executions.

I get that realistically it may be difficult to escort a criminal to court, but it still seems absolutely outrageous that when someone is being sentenced for very serious crimes that they can simply just opt out of attending.

They should be there to face the music instead of hiding away .

Did you not read the posts advocating torture?

beeonmybonnett · 21/08/2023 13:51

IClaudine · 21/08/2023 13:50

Did you not read the posts advocating torture?

No. To be fair, I haven’t read the whole thread.

I don’t agree with torture but yes I still find it so wrong that someone can just decide to not attend their hearing.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 21/08/2023 13:54

I don't think she should be allowed to be there, even if she wanted to. The parents will be baring their hearts and souls to the court on the impact her crimes have had on them. Why should they have to do that in front of someone who basked in their pain and suffering at the time she murdered their babies? Why should she get to sit centre stage while the focus should now be on them and their lost children?

InfiniteTeas · 21/08/2023 13:55

I don't understand this obsession with her being forced into court. I used to be a criminal defence solicitor. It's not uncommon for defendants to refuse to come up to court, and everyone just rolls their eyes and gets on with it. There's no actual practical need for them to be there. If they miss hearing the evidence, that's their problem. If they miss the opportunity to give evidence, again, their problem. If they refuse to come up in order to enter a plea, the judge will assume a not guilty plea and proceed accordingly. It's a courtroom, not an episode of Jeremy Kyle.

She's going to prison for the rest of her life. That's the punishment. The calls for her to be dragged in, kicking and screaming, are just about the public feeling entitled to see her 'suffer.' It's just about the spectacle.

There are circumstances within the criminal justice process when it's necessary for force to be used to move a suspect or defendant - arresting someone, getting them out of the van and into the police station, taking them out of court and down to a cell if they're kicking off, moving them within the prison system. It's avoided where possible, because of the risk to everyone involved, and because it creates a hostile, aggressive environment which is of benefit to nobody. If someone is forced into court, you have no control over what they do or say. You could have security officers injured or having to hang onto a fighting prisoner throughout a lengthy hearing - because we don't do strait jackets and leg chains, disappointing though that might be for some people. You could have families of victims subjected to abuse and deliberate provocation - because we don't gag prisoners. You could have the court hearing disrupted to the point where it takes three times as long. And it makes everything about the perpetrator and their showboating, rather than about some sort of justice for the victims and their families.

With a case like this, it's particularly vital that the families are supported to give their victim impact statements, if they choose to do so, with as much sensitivity and calm as possible. No matter how much they might hate Lucy Letby, it's unlikely they'd find much solace in listening to her screaming or wailing while security staff pin her down.

Let the court get on with doing what they do, whether or not she engages with it. We've moved on a bit from sticking prisoners in the stocks and throwing rotten vegetables at them, or letting people into prisons to stare at the inmates. Also, it's not about what the public wants to see - it's about the families, and the process. She's been splashed all over the papers, and her name will be remembered for decades. No one will ever remember the names of her victims or their families. Wouldn't it be better to just ignore what she does, and let her be sentenced and taken away without anyone laying eyes on her or giving her a moment's more attention?

Wiccan · 21/08/2023 14:00

I think forcing her into the dock would have opened up all kinds of legal problems and given her attention , If the prison service had to use force to get her there then there is a good chance that her defence team would have possibly claimed she had sustained injury in the process. the final moments of that sentencing would have been about her and not the justice for the babies . She refused to attend because she is evil and wanted her last final bit of control .

Yfory · 21/08/2023 14:07

One thing I dont understand (and Im really not offering an opinion on whether or not she should be forced to attend) why are people saying that if she is forced to attend someone might get injured or even worse killed?
How is that realistically likely?

Is that also likely when shes taken to prison too?

If thats the case why arent we hearing of many many prison staff being seriously injured or killed whilst at work? I get that this happens occasionally and of course thats awful - but surely its not happening to the extent that the fears about forcing Lucy Letby to attend would suggest?

InfiniteTeas · 21/08/2023 14:08

I've just realised that this is all a moot point as she was sentenced a short while ago. Hopefully in as calm an environment as possible for the grieving families.

EightChalk · 21/08/2023 14:16

Yfory · 21/08/2023 14:07

One thing I dont understand (and Im really not offering an opinion on whether or not she should be forced to attend) why are people saying that if she is forced to attend someone might get injured or even worse killed?
How is that realistically likely?

Is that also likely when shes taken to prison too?

If thats the case why arent we hearing of many many prison staff being seriously injured or killed whilst at work? I get that this happens occasionally and of course thats awful - but surely its not happening to the extent that the fears about forcing Lucy Letby to attend would suggest?

Prison staff are assaulted by prisoners regularly: https://www.statista.com/statistics/315132/assaults-on-prison-staff-in-england-and-wales/

It's one of the reasons why there are serious issues with staff recruitment and retention. Many prisoners are big blokes, too - Lucy Letby might not be able to injure another adult easily, but that's not the case with many of the people that the staff encounter.

rainbowstardrops · 21/08/2023 14:18

Initially, I had the opinion that people should be made to listen to their sentences and the victim statements in court but I agree now, what would it achieve?
From what I gather, she hasn't shown any remorse whatsoever. She is clearly a very sick individual. So I'm glad that the poor families didn't have to witness her being nonchalant or smirking or whatever she felt like doing. She's pure evil.
I do however think that it should have been audio streamed to her (and everyone else that refuses to attend court) and I don't agree with her being segregated from others.
I'm a nice, compassionate person in real life but that monster is just pure evil.
I also feel sorry for her family to be honest. How must you feel to have a monster as your daughter and all the backlash that will potentially come from that?
Just awful all round.

Wiccan · 21/08/2023 14:18

Yfory · 21/08/2023 14:07

One thing I dont understand (and Im really not offering an opinion on whether or not she should be forced to attend) why are people saying that if she is forced to attend someone might get injured or even worse killed?
How is that realistically likely?

Is that also likely when shes taken to prison too?

If thats the case why arent we hearing of many many prison staff being seriously injured or killed whilst at work? I get that this happens occasionally and of course thats awful - but surely its not happening to the extent that the fears about forcing Lucy Letby to attend would suggest?

Because they'd have to physically do it and no prison system would want to do that as it is in noones best interests. And her defence team would just love to bring up a case of injury to her !

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 21/08/2023 14:19

Yfory · 21/08/2023 14:07

One thing I dont understand (and Im really not offering an opinion on whether or not she should be forced to attend) why are people saying that if she is forced to attend someone might get injured or even worse killed?
How is that realistically likely?

Is that also likely when shes taken to prison too?

If thats the case why arent we hearing of many many prison staff being seriously injured or killed whilst at work? I get that this happens occasionally and of course thats awful - but surely its not happening to the extent that the fears about forcing Lucy Letby to attend would suggest?

Letby isn’t your typical serial killer. Look at people like Dale Cregan and Robert Maudsley. If they didn’t want to go to court they could potentially cause a lot of harm. Levi Bellfield didn’t go to court for sentencing and he could cause harm.

Wiccan · 21/08/2023 14:20

Wiccan · 21/08/2023 14:18

Because they'd have to physically do it and no prison system would want to do that as it is in noones best interests. And her defence team would just love to bring up a case of injury to her !

Also prison /court staff are injured all the time you just aren't informed of it .

Insommmmnia · 21/08/2023 14:20

Yfory · 21/08/2023 14:07

One thing I dont understand (and Im really not offering an opinion on whether or not she should be forced to attend) why are people saying that if she is forced to attend someone might get injured or even worse killed?
How is that realistically likely?

Is that also likely when shes taken to prison too?

If thats the case why arent we hearing of many many prison staff being seriously injured or killed whilst at work? I get that this happens occasionally and of course thats awful - but surely its not happening to the extent that the fears about forcing Lucy Letby to attend would suggest?

There are around 8000 assaults on the a year with around 1000 hospitalised a year

And their average life expectancy is 59 with the usual average life expectancy for men being 70 and women 84

Insommmmnia · 21/08/2023 14:24

rainbowstardrops · 21/08/2023 14:18

Initially, I had the opinion that people should be made to listen to their sentences and the victim statements in court but I agree now, what would it achieve?
From what I gather, she hasn't shown any remorse whatsoever. She is clearly a very sick individual. So I'm glad that the poor families didn't have to witness her being nonchalant or smirking or whatever she felt like doing. She's pure evil.
I do however think that it should have been audio streamed to her (and everyone else that refuses to attend court) and I don't agree with her being segregated from others.
I'm a nice, compassionate person in real life but that monster is just pure evil.
I also feel sorry for her family to be honest. How must you feel to have a monster as your daughter and all the backlash that will potentially come from that?
Just awful all round.

If she isn't segregated she could be assaulted or killed

Once again it is the prison officers who will have to deal with this. Risking injury to break up fights, dealing with transporting violent prisoners to hospital, finding dead bodies etc. Dealing with the inquiries and the scrutiny.

And again this isn't just about one small woman. It's also about large, heavy, violent men.

If segregating prisoners makes prison officers lives and health safer, then that should be the goal. Not "prison justice"

MissFancyDay · 21/08/2023 14:25

People advocating medieval torture, stocks and the public degradation of people convicted of the most terrible crimes on this thread, can't really believe that we should run our society like this can they?

It's just virtue signalling. A competition for who can think of the worst thing to happen to Lucy Letby. "I'd leave her alone with the mothers" "I'd drag her through the streets in a strait jacket" Like the idiots that surround a van containing a criminal hurling insults, it achieves nothing. As I said, virtue signalling.

She will be dealt with as the law in this country dictates. She will never be free.