My work insisting I refer to a 9 year old as they/them

[TheMadGardener]

I work in a British primary school. Just started new term. Long standing pupil, a girl, is starting Year 5 now so she is 9 years old. No issues until now although parents are quite "alternative/new age."

Headteacher has informed staff that according to the child and her parents this girl has decided to be non-binary. Staff are now to refer to her as they/them and she is now using a gender-neutral shortened version of her name (think Alex instead of Alexandra or Jo instead of Joanna).

I am extremely uncomfortable with this and will definitely not be using they/them - I will be referring to the child by her chosen abbreviation to avoid using pronouns (at least it's a shortening of her real name rather than a made-up name).

Serious question: I thought new legislation discouraged schools from getting on board with this sort of thing? Or is it only they can't let children do it without parents knowing?

I'm finding it very hard to keep my mouth shut on my actual opinions in the presence of headteacher. (Colleagues I've spoken to on the quiet all think it is bullshit too)

No human has ever been a true hermaphrodite.

Every single person ever born is one sex or another, even in the most complex of DSDs.

It seems like you don’t know a whole lot about this topic

I understand what you are saying, but we do have sexed pronouns in English.

Given that this is unlikely to change and that using the third person plural to refer to a specific person is confusing, I strongly resent attempts to infer that using ‘he’ or ‘she’ implies anything more than that somebody is male or female.

The term intersex is outdated and no longer normally used. The term in current use is DSD: Difference (or disorder) of sex development.

Humans cannot be hermaphrodites.

None of this has anything to do with this thread which is about a girl who has chosen (or her parents have chosen) to pretend that she doesn't have a sex.

I won’t change my opinion

Despite the information you've been given to the contrary.

I think the matter is filed under “debatable” for me right now.

and likely to stay there forever more if you're going to ignore information to the contrary.

There's nothing to debate, you're wrong, plain and simple.

There is no need to remind a girl that she’s a girl before a test, how silly. Good job no one suggested there was.

But we can’t just pretend sex doesn’t exist when sex will be immediately obvious - in all in-person interactions and even conversations on the phone.

The answer (as always) is to push back against sex based stereotypes, not try to pretend our sex doesn’t exist and isn’t obvious to all around us.

Just to add to my previous comment regarding the term intersex. One of the reasons for the change in terminology was possibly because people were misunderstanding intersex to mean between the sexes or not of either sex but a third sex. This looks to be the source of your misunderstanding of what DSDs are, so using the correct terminology can help understanding.

So you never spoken to someone on the phone and not known what sex they are? Really?

Ive been called Sir on the phone, and ive also not known some voices.

There may be occasional mistakes, but the vast majority of time it is obvious.

And of course this is assuming you don’t already know what sex the person is from other channels.

The point is that pretending we can live in a society that ‘doesn’t see sex’ is silly

There’s certainly been some more intrigue than usual on university challenge. Not that i
mind , each to their own.

I don’t get stressed about who is or isn’t in the public bog or changing room. I would probably worry a bit in prison but I’m not planning on going there soon. I get a little miffed by men on here though. Haven’t they got dad’s net?

If someone wants to be called he/she/Loretta/Bob it’s no skin off my nose. I don’t think calling the kid in question is going to grow up to be Norman Bates and murder us all. Parents will have to live with their decision.

It wouldn’t be something I’d encourage as a parent because I’m all for taking the easy way out. But judging by parents testifying that they couldn’t stop their kids identifying a certain way it’s not an enviable position. I’m not in the business of making people’s lives harder. Nor do I have to put my pronouns on my email signature.

I don’t get stressed about who is or isn’t in the public bog or changing room. I would probably worry a bit in prison but I’m not planning on going there soon.

You're cool with being flashed? With some bloke wanking in front of you? With the fact you can't get him chucked out because he's allowed to be there and he says he didn't do anything wrong? If a man follows a young girl into an empty toilet block, you'd have no concerns, take no precautions? You'd just assume he identifies as a woman and that makes him harmless? If that had been you in WiSpa with your young daughter you'd be AOK with the sex offender with his dick out?

Don't believe you. Not if you're a woman. Where do you draw your personal line? And then have a think about how you communicate and enforce that particular line? Either it's self ID and anyone can come in, or it's not and the only place you can draw a clean line is male and female.

Well you may not get stressed about who’s in the changing rooms or likely to end up in prison, but very unfortunately there are less privileged women out there who do have to worry about these things.

Often these women are some of the least powerful in our society and don’t have a strong voice. I believe we need to stand up for them.

Ultimately it’s very simple. Humans can’t change sex. Women’s sex based rights must be upheld. Gender stereotypes are regressive and harmful and should be pushed back on.

Pretending to children that they can somehow ‘opt out’ of sex is false and harmful. They can’t. Much better to teach them that they can be a girl (or a boy) any way they like, that there’s no right or wrong way to do so.

True hermaphroditism does not exist in humans, that's pretty easy to look up.
Muddying threads with "Caster Semenya has female genitalia" (he doesn't) "some women have mitochondrial DNA removed from their eggs so therefore some babies have more than two parents" and "Hermaphrodites!" in a discussion about a young child wanting to be addressed as a they/them is something a TRA might do. Has done. Often. So posters are wary.

I am very willing to accept that you do not see yourself as a TRA, but you say you won't change your opinion? Which one?

What with other things going on it took me a moment to write this, and then you posted this

I don’t get stressed about who is or isn’t in the public bog or changing room. I would probably worry a bit in prison but I’m not planning on going there soon.

You're alright jack

Pretending to children that they can somehow ‘opt out’ of sex is false and harmful. They can’t. Much better to teach them that they can be a girl (or a boy) any way they like, that there’s no right or wrong way to do so.

This 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

If they are female, they can be any kind of girl they want to be. If they are male, they can be any kind of boy they want to be. Stereotypes be damned.

Ok, ok, we differ in our thoughts.

But getting back to OP. If senior management are making the decision and ultimately going to take flak , let them!

You gotta pick your battles in this world.

When I started teacher training in 2000 we were all stressed about section 28. Our tutor said it came down to our duty of care: gay and trans kids are more likely to take their own lives, so us not showing acceptance is potentially very dangerous.

There’s lots of aspects of parenting and lifestyle I don’t agree with but that’s my personal values at work. It would be different if I thought I needed to raise a safeguarding issue.

I was that 9-year-old, I didn't want to be a girl, I thought being a girl was a life sentence to a life I did not want.If the term 'non-binary' had been in use, I would probably have loved it.

My parents, however, would have said 'Would you ever get a bit of sense into you? You're a girl, and that's that!'
NB wasn't in use, they didn't say that, but they very supportively encouraged all my non-stereotypically 'girly' interests and - as far as practicable - wardrobe choices.

I'd love to sit down with that little 9-year-old and ask her why she thinks she is NB, i.e. not a girl.
What is wrong with being a girl?
What does 'being non-binary' mean to her?
Does she think that 'non-binary' is officially recognised as a category, like 'boy' or 'girl'?
Does she think that being called 'they' and having a new name will make her any less a girl?

Does she think that she can stop being female?
Does she think that she can become male?
Does she think that other girls also dislike being girls, or is it just her?

What does the word 'woman' mean to her?

How does she feel about growing up to be an adult human female?
Does she think all women are the same?
Can she think of some women who are very stereotypically 'feminine'?
How many women in her own family etc are actually like that?
etc.

A nine years old is still a young child , and a good way off having the maturity to understand complicated issues and make balanced judgement calls; but, as I know very well from my own childhood, they can think and feel very deeply.

We owe it to this little girl, and all the other gender-questioning children, to give them the time and space to explore the issues in a calm, neutral, supportive way, based on facts, e.g. that human sex is binary and can't be changed - not rushing in to confirm unproven adult labels like 'non-binary' or 'trans'.

As PPs have pointed out, something is also owed to the other children in the class, i.e. that same fact-based avoidance of unproven adult labels in the classroom.

What an enlightening insight into @SevenYellowHammers mindset/priorities

Things that irk SYH - men accessing a chat forum (which is all anonymised anyway)

Things that give SYH a moments pause for reflection - men in women's prisons. But only a momentary reflection because she ain't no crim so won't be impacted

Things that SYH doesn't appear to give a toss about - men in SSS like toilets ad changing rooms with plenty of evidence of sexual assaults on women and young girls

gay and trans kids are more likely to take their own lives, so us not showing acceptance is potentially very dangerous.

But that wasn't the reason that section 28 was wrong, and suggesting that being gay is a reason to commit suicide is grossly irresponsible.

Are you genuinely suggesting that school policies should be predicated on a fear that pupils might commit suicide?

@SevenYellowHammers trans kids are more likely to take their own lives

Ok, ok, I get you. I am not going to waste time working out how many times you have posted extremely questionable statements as facts. Keep it up, do.

Let them speak.

Also, Section 28 did not cover 'trans kids'.

Back in 2000 Jan Morris was who people thought of when they thought of a transexual and there was no conflation with being gay.

So you're attitude is basically 'meh, it doesn't affect me so....meh'.
Fine, you do you

What you are skipping over though is that these are matters that do affect millions of people, who feel less meh about it all, either because they have direct, damaging, personal experiences, or simply because (and I put myself in this camp) they believe that in order for things like law, education etc to work properly and in a way that is worthy of respect in a democrtatic society, they need to be on a firm basis of proven fact, not on guesswork or fads and fashions or the feelings of a tiny percentage of the population.

There is no factual basis for the concept 'transgender'. Human beings are either male or female - even when they have DSDs, they have male DSDs or female DSDs. It is impossible to 'transition' to being the opposite sex, so transwomen are not women, and transmen are not men, simply because that is biologically impossible.

Turning education, the law, the media, language, medicine etc upside down on the basis that TWAW/TMAM is turning your [one's] back on a basic, provable scientific fact: humans can't change sex.

You aren't bothered SYH? OK, but other people are bothered about things like scientific fact and matters of principle.

TRAs seem to be shifting away from the indefensible claim that TWareW/TMareM, saying instead that transwomen 'present' as women although they remain biologically male, ditto re TMAM.

In which case, it's my turn to say 'meh' - transfolk can present themselves however they want, no problem with that. But in that case there's absolutely no need for the law, education, medicine, the media, pronouns etc to be turned upside down as it has been in the past couple of decades.

No need for GRCs or GRAs or self-ID or mixed sex toilets or anything - present yourself in whatever gender you want to, folks, that's entirely up to you, but since you are not claiming to actually change sex, there's no need to change the small number of organisational and linguistic structures that are based on biological sex.

This thread is a really interesting example of why this topic is so difficult. The concept of 'non-binary' is fundamentally meaningless, but it's being used/accepted/encouraged by people - motives varied/unknown - on bases that lack scientific understanding and logic. So the arguments we've had are that everyone should just agree with whatever a child (or her parents) say, without any objective concern whatsoever. This attitude clearly doesnt apply to all sorts of situations, so why does it apply here and where is the line? That there are more than 2 sexes in human beings, and 'hermaphrodites'; which shows no understanding of sexual reproduction or Darwinism; and that some people just don't care about women's rights; which isn't even an argument is it really; though is very indicative I think of the link between so-called trans rights and the neo-liberal individualism that many proponents of these rights would claim to shun.

Yes this conflation of trans and gay is nonsensical. Being same-sex attracted self-evidently requires and understanding of what sex means!

But it is a TRA tactic. Fancy that.

But what about all the other children in the class? What about their needs, to be able to trust the adults around them to tell the truth?

Why should they be indoctrinated into this belief system that tells them if they don't feel like a boy/ girl (whatever the hell that means) then they must be NB?

Why don't you care about them?

This is exactly as aPP said, its analogous to the teacher saying prayers every morning because one religious kid demands it. Actually its more than that. Its saying the prayers AND telling the class that that religion is definitely true and it would be unkind to question it.

Even religious schools don't teach religion as fact, its 'some people believe...'

This girl will be using the girls toilets.

She's in y5 which is when they learn about reproduction and puberty.

Do we really think all the other children will just accept that she's a special anomaly and that they shouldn't question it (if they know what's good for them)?

Won't they be asking 'why does she use the girl's toilets if she's not a girl' Am i not a girl? How would I tell? etc etc? There's no good answer to these questions except to go further down the rabbit hole of lies.

I would be furious if my child was in that class being taught that its a fact that some people don't have a sex, because they don't feel like a stereotype.

Edit for typos.

@MarieDeGournay I think I’m more “meh, there’s f@ck all I can do about it. Based on my personal values and beliefs, people do hideous things. But if they are not hurting anyone in in doing so, then meh yeah