Richard Dawkins

[zanahoria]

He is similarly despairing about the tenor of the debate around trans rights. “The idea seems to be that it doesn’t matter what’s objectively true, what matters is the way you feel. That’s ridiculous. Just because you feel you’re a woman – I guess you can have your delusion if you like, but if you’re 6ft 4in and you go to swimming competitions and walk away with all the medals, that’s just dishonest. That’s cheating.”
What he particularly hates is the way the trans debate is sometimes framed as something unworthy of debate at all. “I really despise the tactics of the trans people, the way they won’t actually argue the case but just cancel people. That’s contemptible,” he says. “It’s horrible that they can’t actually just have a civilised conversation… You can’t discuss it. You just get people cancelled, get publishers bullied into cancelling books, and women forced to change in front of fully intact males. They’re put in female prisons… It’s a scandal.”
What does he make of the claim that vulnerable trans people might be nudged towards taking their own lives if their rights are not extended or defended? “Nonsense. That’s a great myth. These so-called suicidal people – they’re mentally screwed-up anyway.”

https://archive.ph/BXlJr

Don't give them ideas!

Have you checked the 6 mile long list, it may already be on there, they seemed to have stuck gender on the end of every word in the language. 😂

I don't think the post included any comments by RD about hairdressers or gibbons. What's your point?

No thanks, you don't seem to have understood what he said so maybe think about that. He said if you are 6'4" and win medals you are cheating. Did that mean a woman who is 6'4" is cheating? Hardly seems fair. Or does he mean if you are 6'4" you arent a woman which those 190 women who are 6'4" could reasonably object to.

If he wants to comment he needs to actually say what he means. If he meant if you are a 6'4" man and win the medals you are cheating that's fair enough but is the height the issue or the sex? What height can a man be to not be cheating?

It was a stupid remark and I don't know why people are defending it.

He is obviously referring to examples of trans identifying male athletes who tower over female athletes.

I agree that this is beside the point because men don't need to be bigger than women to have an advantage. Eliud Kipchoge, for instance is shorter and lighter than many female runners.

LOL at the desperation of TRAs...

"Oh wow! Here's a statement that in context very clearly refers to trans women (male) competing in female sports because they "feel" like women, but because Dawkins said "you are 6'4" not "you are 6'4 and male" let's pretend we think he was just talking about height regardless of sex because that's far easier to paint as unreasonable than objecting to male people which is what he clearly meant"

Again, the arguments are so bad that out of respect for TRAs I find I have to assume it's a knowingly bad faith take, because otherwise I'd be forced to conclude these people are too stupid to handle a Beano let alone politics.

TheignT · Today 12:08

No thanks, you don't seem to have understood what he said so maybe think about that. He said if you are 6'4" and win medals you are cheating. Did that mean a woman who is 6'4" is cheating?

No, of course he doesn't mean that at all and I have to wonder what would make you come to such a conclusion.

Or does he mean if you are 6'4" you arent a woman which those 190 women who are 6'4" could reasonably object to.

As I'm sure you're aware, he means transw - not real women. Honestly, I don't know why you bothered to actually type out such a load of mince!

On the subject of Dawkins and religion, I saw an interview with him, before he wrote The God Delusion. He read out a selection of the large number of nasty comments and death threats he'd had, simply for being an evolutionary biologist.

So apart from him being intelligent and hugely knowledgeable in the field of biology and genetics, I think that he must sympathise with sex realist women, who have also had all the death and rape threats, as he was pre-primed, from his experience.

A classic straw man argument, in fact.

Yes, I was just thinking that. The poster accusing people of strawmanning when they're not now has an example of what an actual strawman is.

He said if you are 6'4" and win medals you are cheating

Except he didn't say that did he?

This is what he said:

Just because you feel you’re a woman – I guess you can have your delusion if you like, but if you’re 6ft 4in and you go to swimming competitions and walk away with all the medals, that’s just dishonest.

Look at the first part of that again and think about what it means: Just because you feel you’re a woman – I guess you can have your delusion if you like,

Do you think he's saying that to a woman or a man? Remember he's saying that the person in question is delusional in thinking they're a woman. Do you really think it's possible that he's talking to a woman? Would anyone really call a woman delusional for thinking she's a woman?

If he meant if you are a 6'4" man and win the medals you are cheating that's fair enough

Well, he did say that, so we agree.

That's not exactly what he said according to the quote in the first post. Again does that mean it's ok if 5ge man is ,6'3" or 5"6', the height isn't the point is it. The sex is the point.

Oh, for the good old days when everyone knew that feelings are not facts.

Would you be happier if he had said

'but if you have benefited from male puberty and you go to women's swimming competitions and walk away with all the medals, that’s just dishonest.'

Is it his lack of precision that is bothering you?

It's the focus on height, it's irrelevant isn't it. It isn't ok to enter a race if you don't qualify for it. So if it's a woman's race men of any height don't qualify. For some sports size also matters but the only ones I can think of are weight related not height and still sex based but I don't know them all but say boxing as an example.

Isn’t it strawwoman?

I think you have a problem with reading comprehension.

The height reference was a “colourful” bit of rhetoric by way of illustrating the visual absurdity presented by some trans women when placed in a sporting context with real female women.

The point was to say that just because you think you feel female, despite being actually male, you should not be allowed to compete against actual female people.

I am sorry that you were not able to understand this. Or perhaps you just want to pick away at this crap all day for your own reasons?

Have you not seen the swooning over the Wickerman?

No I just think people should say what they mean. We could all talk rubbish and then say it was just being colourful. Do you really think 6'4" was relevant or do you think what he meant was men shouldn't be competing in women's events. Say what you mean.

I think what Richard Dawkins meant was very clear if you read the complete piece. No man should be participating in female sports.
The reference to the "6'4" swimmer" was clearly a reference to a well publicised real life situation where the optics of the 6"+ male transwoman lining up with the clearly female field gave a stark and undeniable example of the unfairness of his actions.

Would a 6'4" woman look shorter? I'm entitled to my view just as much as you.

Geeez, I'm not a native English speaker and I knew instantly what he meant.

I actually miss the early internet's creationists vs evolutionists battles. At least young earth creationists don't promote mutilating kids.

No but her body shape would be completely different. The only difference between a 6"4' woman and the other competitors would be height (and limb length etc). She would be within the normal range of women - albeit an outlier.
A 6'4" man however is clearly different on height, body shape, musculature, hip mobility, chest/lung capacity, speed and endurance capability caused by differing hormonal development caused by going through male rather than female puberty.
The physical difference between the two competitors is stark and obvious.
The 6'4" descriptor is a shortcut for these obvious differences but I think you understood that.

That is exactly what he said according to the quote in the first post. I copied and pasted it from the first post.